Algerian Genocide!!!

i understand what akritas is saying,

if that is genocide then you would have to consider vietnam, afghanistan and definantly what happened in anadolia as the same thing. But you dont, so why would you rant about the french when you yourself havent done the same thing.

Originally posted by Bulldog Again more double standards and hypocracisy, Turkey can argue that France is trying to cover up its past by getting involved with something that doesn't involve them.

It is you Bulldog that is the hypocrite. Only non-deniers could morally carry themselves in this thread without looking like idiots. In the end, your blaming the french for the same thing that you and many turks do. Maybe france, japan and turkey should join in the Hypocrital 'we didnt do it' Union (HU) and bitch about the accusers together.

though seroiusly, I hope all sides can face their emperailistic pasts in a honest way.

This thread was started for disingenuous reasons and upheld by some disingenuous arguements

Edited by Leonidas - 08-Oct-2006 at 09:46

when muslims are killed it is a massacre....
when christians are killed it is a genocide...

If this is not a hypocrisy,then what?

Before analysing your position I'd like to make a few points
� I find the position of Ankara quite disgusting. Using people's suffer for blantantly political manover is shameful. You may not like France's position on the Armenian genocide but one thing's for sure there is no short term political motivation.
� I am ready to acknoledge the fact there was a genocide. After all whether you intended or not to kill all the population of a country doesn't really matters once they're all dead. Nonetheless one thing is certain if the French army had decided to kill all the Algerian the death tool would be much much higher.

Originally posted by EGET�RK Approximately 1.5 million Algerian Muslim Arabs were tortured and massacred under the French rule according to the Algerian sources  1.5 million dead, while French officials estimated it at 350,000. [http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/alpha/algeria1954.htm Algeria Independence France 1954-1962] Algerians argue that the massacres should be named as genocide and France must apologise from the Algerians. However the French do not accept the claims.

� Quickly some math Algeria war 1954-1962: 350,000 casulties (43,750 a year).
� French rule 1830-1962: 1,500,000 casulties (1,500,000 - 350,000 = 1,150,000 that is 9,280 a year including the colonization wars) It is a blood bath indeed but I'm not sure we can call it a genocide. Because if it is a genocide what is Rwanda or the Holocaust (1,000,000 casulties a year)? In my opinion it is the cost of racist imperialism but not a real policy of elimination.


[/QUOTE] Algeria's President Abdelaziz Bouteflika says that French colonization of his country Algeria was a form of genocide. In memoirs, some French officers have described torture of Algerians during the war, however France has never accepted its responsibility in tortures and massacres in Algeria. [/QUOTE]

Bouteflika, you mean the guy who extensively used toture against FIS, GIA and GSPC? The man who's army and police have massacred thousand of his constituant. The man who's party sucks the money coming from gas export. I'm sorry you should pick your heroes more carefully.

[/QUOTE�] Paris says that the past should be left to historians. French President Jacques Chirac, upon harsh reactions to the law encouraging the good sides of the French colonial history, made the statement, "Writing history is the job of the historians, not of the laws." Writing history is the job of the historians"  According to Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, "speaking about the past or writing history is not the job of the parliament.[/QUOTE]

Well I perfectly agree with that. Although I have to admit the parliament itself tend to forget this once in a while.

[/QUOTE]The Algerian president [[Bouteflika]] said in a speech in Paris on [[17 April]] 2006 "We no longer know whether we are Berbers (indigenous North Africans), Arabs, Europeans or French. France committed a genocide of Algerian identity during the colonial era. Colonisation brought the genocide of our identity, of our history, of our language, of our
traditions."[/QUOTE]

Well it is a interesting stateent from a man who has massacred Kabil for a decade. And frankly, colonization was bad enough by itself not to be called genocide. Bouteflika should consider the case of Australia, Terra del Fuego, Congo, Tasmania and German Tanganika before talking about Algerian genocide.

[/QUOTE] [[Algeria]] first became a colony of France in 1830. After a war which ended in Algeria's independence in 1962, eight million Algerian residents were deprived of French nationality and hundreds of thousands of 'pieds noir' (French who settled in Algeria and were re-patriated at the end of the war) were forced home to a place which was not home.[/QUOTE]

Once more be precise: the Muslims in Algeria never had the French nationality. As everybody in the colonies, they were "subjects" of the republic. Beside, the all point of the Algerian nationalist was not to be French any longer.

[/QUOTE] [[Algeria]] called on [[France]] to apologise in 2005 for crimes committed during the colonial era. Bouteflika also urged Paris to admit its part in the massacres of 45,000 Algerians who took to the streets to demand independence as Europe celebrated victory over Nazi Germany in 1945. French authorities then responded by playing down the comments, urging "mutual respect". [/QUOTE]

Setif is indeed one of the worst episode of the war. Actually I think the French government recently admited its responsability though not very loudly.

Just a few facts to finish with:
� In my opinion the Turks should stay discret on this matter because before 1830, Algerian was a colony of the Ottomans!
� There are two reason why the Armenian genocide is more important to be reckonized than the Algerian one (sort of) and that is because France has welcomed more than 50% of the Armenian refugiees and because unlike France, Turkey may be tempted to do it again (the Kurd problem).
� Most of the figures the Algerian government is giving are actually found by French historian living in Paris and paid by the state. In the mean time people go to jail in Ankara for antiturkish behaviour whenever they mention the Armenian problem.
� Ankara should stay quite as the French government is their best ally in their bid for the EU.
� The only reason Bouteflika is asking for the labelling of the Algerian war as a genocide is money.

Last but not least, by pretending there have been a genocide, they give a perferct excuse to the French government not to apologize for the massacre of thousands of Algerians.

� In my opinion the Turks should stay discret on this matter because before 1830, Algerian was a colony of the Ottomans!
Algerian President said that they proud about that...
� There are two reason why the Armenian genocide is more important to be reckonized than the Algerian one (sort of) and that is because France has welcomed more than 50% of the Armenian refugiees and because unlike France, Turkey may be tempted to do it again (the Kurd problem).
also,there is a lot of algerian in france...but,there is a point that i did not understand,Dİd we massacred K�rts???
� Most of the figures the Algerian government is giving are actually found by French historian living in Paris and paid by the state. In the mean time people go to jail in Ankara for antiturkish behaviour whenever they mention the Armenian problem.no!!Nobody is in the jail for their ideas about so called armenian genocide,but who write a book which regognize so called armenian genocide became famous in T�rkiye and in Europe, they know that all of the Europe,our media and our Prime Minister will support them under the name of İdea freedom(Like elif şafak or Orhan Pamuk)...But in europe or world,The historians who support realities are menace by Tashnaks and Diaspora,and nobody support them,and they can not continue to their job(like Bernard Lewis and Gilles weinstein)...Where is Freedom of idea???
� Ankara should stay quite as the French government is their best ally in their bid for the EU.We dont want EU anymore,we saw who is ally who is enemy,And also,an imperialist state who have desires in T�rkiye can not be our ''BEST ALLY''...
� The only reason Bouteflika is asking for the labelling of the Algerian war as a genocide is money.Did u think about why does armenians try to make recognize '''so calleds'' to us...1.for compensation,2. for territory demands(we can see those demands in their constitutions)...What is Bouteflika's wrong???

Edited by Mortaza - 08-Oct-2006 at 17:04

who did?

Algeria says so.

im sorry, i may be a little hazy on Franco-Algerian history...but their independance from France in 1962?left very little to say they were upset about the few spot killings...hell the british did it in every colonial state they controlled eg: Egypt, India, Congo, South Africa and Australia...

Originally posted by malizai_ Originally posted by Leonidas I hope all sides can face their emperailistic pasts in a honest way.   It is honesty that can separate politics from facts. I think there has been enough time placed between the past and now, for the concerned parties to make amends and lay to rest the ghosts of that ugly past.   I don't think anybody has a monopoly on declaring something as a massacre, genocide etc. Werther the suffering were Armenians, Algerians, Bosnians or Circassians is secondary, important thing is to recognize that civilians were killed on a mass scale unjustifiably, the rest is just semantics.

 

i completely agree...people should just let go. The Algerian massacre was not in any shape or form a genocide...There would be no benefit in decimating an entire race... Also consider the time frame of which Algeria became independant...1962 places it a decade after Egypt had its independance from Great Britain.

The oppression placed on the North African countries was NOT one associated with being Muslim...It was associated with the formation of the Arab unity. France, Britain and America was greaty concerned that if the Arab nations became linked then they would lose complete control. As can be seen for the few years between 1956 and 1960 and in 1973.(different context i understand...but im demonstrating what the western powers were afraid of)

France was not intent on killing all the muslims of Algiers...which means that by definition, the massacres in Algiers can not be termed Genocide.

Originally posted by Mortaza Only non-deniers   I dont know any non-deniers country except germany.(Even she is accepting genocide claim only for jews.)   All of other countries which made genocide deny it.

your right, germany is the country which others can learn from in my mind, it has faced and acccepted its ugly past.  So Germany (not others) can talk about facing the past and not look foolish.

Originally posted by mermaid when muslims are killed it is a massacre.... when christians are killed it is a genocide... If this is not a hypocrisy,then what?

agreed (though i also feel that the word is used way to freely in general)

 In some parts of the world when christains are killed its called a 'massacre'  and of course there are all these other 'genocides' the other way around, get my point? when you do, this would stop being a mere POV circular arguement with double standards flying in all directions.

Originally posted by Bulldog Unfortunately some people who don't happen to be fans of certain Empires/States try to deny that they ever did anything positive, create anything, advance or discover anything. They blur bitterness with logic and realities. If somebody doesn't "like" the Brittish Empire or any other Empire fine but don't deny what they have contributed.

link
...maybe you can apply your own blinkered veiw of imperialism to the french

Originally posted by Bulldog Oh and Japan, France, Turkey you think there the only countries who have some accusations against? tell me a large country who hasn't got any accusations against its name.

Either way it is how they handle their own past that really seperates them. So really the question should be; Which states actaully ban the word 'genocide' for being used for certain parts of its own past and inprison members of its press and writers for expressing such views? i can say its not france

Originally posted by Bulldog France started this and got itself involved, Turkey has every right to point out France's hypocrisy's.

geez we all know that everyone has right to finger point, but what your point? its doesnt seem to be about  the Algerains or bloody european emperialism. I see politics, the type used by the turkish foriegn ministry and some very sad and immature point scoring. This is just politicising death to help another argument in the opposite direction (soo disingenuous)

Turkey can get nothing out of this, it cant make too much noise about other 'genocides' without it coming back on them, they have alot in common with other former empires including the very charges it lays on its percieved opponents. Its a lose - lose arguement, simple as that. There is no more substance to all of this, than political rhetoric for domestic consumption, and you seem to dine on it. When turkey can at least alow its history to be discussed openly without legal intervention, it may be taken more seroiusly by outsiders in talking about 'history'.





Edited by Leonidas - 09-Oct-2006 at 03:02