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Saxon and Scythian

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Saxon and Scythian
    Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 04:12

As I knew Germanic own beliefs and myths won’t change your beliefs!

Bye for now!



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Jun-2008 at 04:13
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 07:34
Which of them says they are Scythian or Iranian??
And we're still waiting for some explanations from you.
Bon voyageWink
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 08:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As I knew Germanic own beliefs and myths won’t change your beliefs!

Bye for now!


I'm not sure what you mean. What Snorri wrote was not the beliefs of the old Germanic peoples. Being a Christian, he tried to invent a human background of the Norse gods. This has been debunked though.
You obviously haven't made up your mind, since in one moment you claim they were imigrating Scyths and in the next moment you start comparing Norse gods with Iranian gods claiming they are similar (you can't have both!!).

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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 08:32
And then comes Persian...Confused
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
However you remind me of an interesting translation problem that arose when I was learning. We had to translate a review of the Brando film 'The Men', which raised the question of how the film's title ought to be translated (Brando is a paraplegic in a veterans hospital post WW2). Nobody ever came up with a perfect solution, partly because we were not allowed a plural of chelovek, partly because it has to be gender-specific, and indeed connotate vigour, and partly because of the definite article.
 
Suggestions?
 
Well. The use of "cheloveka" is indeed limited to the combination with some numerals. But it's totally literal and is widely used. I can even refer you to the news articles in Russian by the official mass media which use "X cheloveka" if you are interested. Smile
 
 There was "cheloveki" in the Old Russian. It's indeed is not used now and sounds funny. Smile. I guess the word which was referred by those authors was "cheloveki."
 
But for "The Men" "Liudi" is indeed the best translation. However, "The Three Men" would be "Tri Cheloveka"
 
(Sorry I overlooked this.)
 
Then how would you translate the Barbara Streisand song 'People'? 'Liudi' misses the macho irony of calling the film 'The Men', when it is about former conbat infantrymen/marines who are now more or less helpless cripples. How about ' бойцы ' to get the flavour better?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 19:18
Well, boitsy actually means "fighters" but for "the Men" perhaps would be "Muzhchiny," then three men is probably "Troe muzhchin" (althought honestly I don't like how it sounds Smile) It's somehow awkward.
 
For Barbara S. "Liudi" works good.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 19:40
You remind me that one of the oddities about my (West Saxon) dialect is that 'mush' means 'man'.  Somehat belligerently, as in "Are you looking at me, mush?"
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 19:49
Intrestengly enough, the most macho translation of "The men" would be "Muzhiki" Muzh is a man in Old Russian and husband in mordern.  Smile
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2008 at 11:03
Sounds good, with the 'ik' in there.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 08:56
Why was this thread moved here?! It is not just a linguistic discussion.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 09:18
But it turned to almost exclusively linguistic one.Smile
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:45
Exactly.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:37
Welcome back, Cyrus. Good to see you again. Anyway, you still owe us your answers to these two questions:

1, How did Scythians (who didn't exist at the time) manage to get into Scandinavia and be ancestral to Germanic tribes??

2, And then you started to deny the existence of PGer - your criterion was probably that it isn't an attested language. But a few questions arise then. Why are you using Persian to back up your Scythian-Saxon theory?? If you don't believe in PGer, then you probably don't believe in Proto-Iranian either. So therefore you can't (by your own logics) link Persian to Scythian. And since we know almost nothing about the Scythian language, it can't be considered (by your own logics) real either. . So is it real or not??

Styrbiorn already explained you that all that Snorri and old Germanic beliefs had in common was the geographical distribution and I explained you that your article doesn't support you at all.

So please could you answer them? (the second one is a yes/no answer so it's easy)

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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 23:48
The greatest question I have is: What did those riding nations wanted in Skandinavia and Germany? Did they search for green wide and open pastures for their cattle? Was the great wealth, the high culture an attraction for these Scythians? All nations walk to the Gold, only the Scythians, they left their homes to settle along stormy coast and between moors, swamps and dark forests? Perhaps Cyrus has an explanation even for this!
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Slayertplsko, do you want to fool yourself? Saxons could not be an Iranian people just because they used "ik" instead of "adam" ("I" in Old Persian)? Confused

Do you know the reason? It is very obvious for me that "ik" comes from the old Persian word "ikvot" (modern Persian "Khod") which also means "I"(emphatical)/"myself", for example read another thing about Rumi:

http://www.payvand.com/news/02/nov/1012.html

"Vojood-e man azab-khaana-st o aan mastaan dar oo jam'and; Delam heyraan k-az ishaanam, ajab yaa khod man ishaanam"
('My being (or existence) is a brothel house, and the drunkards are gathering there. I wonder if I am one of them, or I am them' D.)



This shows you know nothing of the evolution of Indo-European pronouns. LOL

O.Eng. "Ic," O.Per. "Adam", and Latin "Ego" all stem from Proto-IE *h'egom. This is a well established fact of IE lingustics.
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 04:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Are Iranian langauges also considered as Indo-European langauges?

Duh! It took you this whole thread to figure that out!?! Confused

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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 05:44
Proto-Germanic wasn't a "real language"? LOL If that's the case all those historical linguists are going to be out of a job because according to your logic all reconstructed proto-languages are not real. LOL


Among the branches of IE Germanic and Indo-Iranian are pretty much as far apart from earch other as you can get. Indo-Iranian, Greek, Thraco-Phrygio-Armenian, and Albanian are derived from what linguists call A-group, Yamna, or southern dialects of Late Proto-Indo-European. Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, Balto-Slavic, and Tocharian are derived from what have been called B-group, Corded Ware, or northern dialects of Proto-IE.

The Yamna dialects, for example had what is called the "augment prefix" in Classical Greek for denoting past tense, the Corded Ware dialects did not

Here is some text in the Corded Ware dialects, 2000BC:

Ówis ékwōs-kwe. Ówis, kwésio wl̥̄nā ne est, ékwoms
spekét, óinom ghe gwrum wóghom wéghontm, óinom-kwe mégām bhórom, óinom-kwe dhghmónm
ṓku bhérontm. Ówis nu ékwobhios wewkwét: krd ághnutoi moí, ékwoms ágontm wrom wídntei.
Ékwōs tu wewkwónt: Klúdhi, ówi! krd ághnutoi nsméi wídntbhios: anér, pótis, ówjom-r wĺnām
sébhi gwhermóm wéstrom kwrnéuti. Ówjom-kwe wl̥̄nā ne ésti. Tod kékluwos ówis ágrom bhugét.

In Proto-Indo-Iranian, 1500BC:

Avis ak‟vasas-ka. Avis, jasmin varnā na āst, dadark‟a
ak‟vans, tam, garum vāgham vaghantam, tam, magham bhāram, tam manum āku bharantam. Avis ak‟vabhjas
avavakat; k‟ard aghnutai mai vidanti manum ak‟vans ag‟antam. Ak‟vāsas avavakant: k‟rudhi avai, kard aghnutai
vividvant-svas: manus patis varnām avisāns karnauti svabhjam gharmam vastram avibhjas-ka varnā na asti. Tat
k‟uk‟ruvants avis ag‟ram abhugat.

In English:

The Sheep and the Horses. A sheep that had no wool saw horses, one pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a
big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: “My heart pains me, seeing a man
driving horses”. The horses said: “Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes
the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool”. Having heard this, the sheep
fled into the plain.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 14:12
 
 
Hello,
 
Take a look at this:
 
 
Very much connections with all North European people.
 
Original Scythia was what was known as the 'Middle Enclosure' now the Black Sea.
 
'Second Scythia' is was is now Scania.  I.E. Scandinavia.
 
Saxons / Angles etc etc - even the Picts come from there.
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 22:02
Originally posted by Aelle

 
 
Hello,
 
Take a look at this:
 
 
Very much connections with all North European people.
 
Original Scythia was what was known as the 'Middle Enclosure' now the Black Sea.
 
'Second Scythia' is was is now Scania.  I.E. Scandinavia.
 
Saxons / Angles etc etc - even the Picts come from there.
 
In a sense I not sure in what way this person means with Scythian or if he wrote this know what a Scythian is even in the acedamic sense
Very confusing and full of contradiction and reading more there it seems like highly nationalistic site as well. So acording to him English people is cross blood line that scythia in it  and Norsemen are pure Germanic while English people do have Scythian blood  and more etc if I gott it  correct and it talks about people from the black sea well a common taught is that PIE speaking people lived close to the black sea.
 
And he talks about Asgard being a place in east asia? Does he belive that place existed..
and being English origin?
Asgard is where the Norsegods are acording to asatru.
 
And Saxons coming to Scania 6000 yaers ago... yeah right... and in that part he talks about Anglic and Saxon being some tribes who came there before GERMANIC OR IE SPEAKING PEOPLE OR what he calls Nordic Picts... what the.. what does he mean?
 
I just gott many question reading the text and I do not take it serious.
 
I also read his text about the English langauge and then then it seems like it is only I West Germanic  langauge where serveral tribes like Saxons and Frisians Anglic and so on merged and it gott very influnced of Old Norse and Normen French that he claims are Scythian
 
No Scania(Skåne) and Scythia has very little do with each other in fact no Scythian or Iranian tribe has sett it's fott there in a remarakble sense at least Scania and Juteland are the where you cannot or it is extremly hard to find pre IE place names or pre-Germanic names so it commonly taught to be Proto-Germanic homelands and IE speaking people came there long ago as far back as 4500 years as the kurgans building battle axe culture as a Corded Ware IE dialect.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 09:56
It's the same kind of ______ (fill in the blank) that all nationalists produce. Just for fun, Some, check these sites:
http://www.carantha.net/the_vends_in_scandinavia.htm
http://www.veneti.info/en

These are Slovenian (thus Slavic) nationalist sites based on the works of Jožko Šavli and some other authors. I especially loved the centum-satem section on the latter, hilarious.Smile

Similar crap was written by a Czech (or Moravian) Antonín Horák. The book is called ''O Slovanech trochu jinak'' (literally: About Slavs a bit differently), where he claims that Slavs are original inhabitants of, in fact, the whole world and identifies various inscription from all around the world as proto-Slavic, claiming that their urheimat was at Pamir (which he claims to come from Pra-mir, which in Slavic languages means proto-world), and so on. Or for instance, the Greek placename Pylos is supposed to come from Slavic palác (palace), absolutely ignoring the fact that the word entered Slavic languages in early modern era from Italian.

I also saw somewhere a Magyar etymological dictionary, wherein every single word had Sumerian etymology.

Yet, many people believe these ______ (fill in the blank). Usually such people have no linguistic and very little historical knowledge, which makes them unable to distinguish between something scientifically proved or provable and the opposite.
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