Saxon and Scythian

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Greeks called Sacae "Scythia" and Iran (Airana) "Alan", these are different names, not different peoples. Scythians/Sacae/Saka/Sacasene/Sacassani/Saxons were just different names of an Iranian/Alani people, of course they differ from Persians, Parthians, Medians, Kurds, Lurs, Gilakis, Mazanis, Tajiks and other Iranic peoples.

But your assumption is not warranted, you have to prove the Alans were the Sakae (and according to ancient authors not all Scythians were the Sakae, only a part of them, and similarly the Sacasene were only those settled in Armenia).

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Scythians/Sacae/Saka/Sacasene/Sacassani/Saxons were just different names of an Iranian/Alani people

Ammianus Marcellinus says (book XXXI, chapter 2, 13-17) the Alani were a name given to a union of tribes inhabiting the "deserts of Scythia" between Don and India and China (well, between Alans and Chinese he says there is an uninhabitated space because one of the Alan tribes, the Anthropophagi).

Edited by Chilbudios - 09-May-2008 at 17:09

I'm pretty sure the Saxons were around Southern Denmark, and looking at your map, thats a LONG way off even from the red migration line.

well the map of Cyrus is a mix of the Alan migration with that of the years after 400, when Alans, Vandals, Suebes and probably other groups marched westwards across the Rhine to Gaul  and the Iberian peninsula. I think I can agree with area 1 and 2, but area 3 in Pannonia was the territory of germanic groups too. The areas 4 and 5 in Gaul are even stations of Vandals and Suebes. But sure there were strong Alan groups among the troops that raided in Gaul. Some of that Alan groups were settled in Gaul. In Iberia the Alans took the Carthaginensis, but they were beaten by Goth troups of the Roman Empire. So Geiserich, the Hasdingian king led as Alan king too the troops from Europe to North-Africa. The Alans dissapeared in this new Geiserich-ethnos, just called Vandals. In the end they weren't mentioned anymore.

Edited by beorna - 09-May-2008 at 23:14

 

1. Ababa, Hababa (Alanian, the mother of the emperor Maksimian) – V. Abaev explained the name as „Good weaver” basing on os. wafun „to weave” and  OI.  *hu- „good”. The last word is absent in the modern Iranian languages, and it was fixed in the Old Iranian only in compound words. Obviously, the word got disused quite a long time ago, therefore it is very doubtful, that it was present in the language of Sarmatians of Iranian origin. Possibly, it has the same origin as OE hebba  «began, ascent».
2. Alanoi  (the name of Alans) – the origin of the name could be in OI aryana- “Aryain” (Os. allon). However at the accepted assumption of the German origin of Alans the name could be considered as a spoiled word Angls (angloi → aŋloi → alŋoi → alanoi)..
3. Alanorsoi  (the name of the other tribe of Alans) – „white Alans” (Os. ors „white”) or “mounted Alans” (OE hors «horse»)?
4. Amagh (Sarmatian queen) – the Ossetic has no correspondences, OI  ama „strong, mighty”. OE hām «house, dwelling» and āga «own, possession» suit perfectly phonetically and by meaning for queen’s name. The name obviously can be understanded as a «mistress of  home».
5. Amwspados (Olvia) - OI ama „strong, mighty”,  spāda „army”. The sudy shows that Old-Iranian roots without correspondences in Kurdish, Ossetic or Pashtoo languages do not help for the decoding of Sarmatian names. This name can be contain OE spœd „success, happiness, riches». For the first part of the word, one could propose OE. hām «house, dwelling» or hama «clothes».
6. Anacarsis (a famous sage and traveler at Scythian time) – Anacharsis was not a Scythian. It can be concluded from Herodotus’ phrase: «among tribes in Pontic lands we can name none which was known by the wisdom, and know nobody, who would become fame by the mind, except for Scythian poeple and Anaharsis» (IV, 46) Anahacharsis was the son of Gnur, grandchild of the king of Agathyrses Spargapeyta and the  son of Lik All three last the name can be decoded by mean of Old English (see Spargapeiqhs). Then Old English accordance must be found also for Anaharsis’ name: OS āno «without», OE hors/hyrs «horse» (i.e. «not possessing a horse”). In Old English The correspondence for  OS āno is not found, but these languages are very near each to other.
7. Andanakos (Tanaida) – «steel» (attr.) out of  Os. ändon «steel» does not suit –steel was not known in those times, and there was another word for iron in the Ossetic. Besides, the Ossetic word is loaned from the Chechenian, where a lot of words of this root are present: ando «firmness, durability», anddan «to strengthen», anddala “to become stronger”, ondanig «strong, hard», etc. The Andanakos’ name is formed out of two OE words: anda «enmity, envy, spite, anger» and nǽcan “to kill”.
8. Ardabda (Alanian name for the town of Feodosia in the Crimea) – the morpheme ard is a component part of some names of the Onomastikon. According to Abaev ard – „one of major religious notions of the Iranian world”. Obviously, this word developed from I.-e. root ar „to drive in, adjust, to put in order”. Pokorny considers that semantics of the word developed in some languages to the meaning „law, justice” (OInd ŗta „just, fair”, OI arta- „law, right, sacred right”, Arm. ardar „just”.  In Ossetic ard „oath” (originally - a deity for swearing). V.Abaev propose the explanation for this name  “the city devoted to seven gods” (Os. avd „seven”). Not denying Abaev’s interpretation of morpheme ard with the meaning „law, sacred law, right, justice), we could give properly for the Alanian name of the town of Feodosia another explanation. There was in the Old English a word eard „motherland, country, locality, residence”. The combination of this word together with OE the preposition of (Ger ab) and OE dā „roe deer, chamois”  eard of dā could mean „dwelling of chamois” or „locality flush of chamoises”, that could give the name for a town arising up on this place.
9. Ariapeiqes (the name of a Scythian king) – the key for solution of the name could be its second part, which has no satisfactory explanations neither in Iranian nor in Turkic languages. If we will appeal to the Old English language, we will find here a few possibilities for interpretation of the second part of  Ariapeyt’s name. In such a case, we may take OE ār «honour, dignity, glory»   for the first part of the name which with OE  fǽtan to «decorate» suits well for the name of the king  («decorated by glory»). The ruler of Agathyrses Spargapeyt (see Spargapeiqhs), which killed Ariapeyt, lived at the same time. Both names are consonant in the second part, although they have different interpretations out of different words.
10. Arii (Sarmatian tribe) – this name is identical to the wide-spread tribe-name among Indoeuropeans. The name can have the same origin as OE  ār «honour».
11. Arijarnhs (according to Diodor of Sicily “the name of a king of  the tribe Qateis”) – „ carrier of Aryan celestial grace” (in Iranian mythology farn/xvarna- „divine force” „celestial grace”, Os. farn „rest”). However words with this root are present in Germanic languages. The leader of  Goths Farnobius is known in the history. Holthausen gives also the proper names Farnoin and Farnulf.  He explains OE farnian “to have happiness” as a loan-word from OIc (farna-sk). In general, Germanic languages have the words of this root, which mean a „fern” (Ger Farn).  According Slavic mythology the flower of fern brings luck, it is possible other people had similar superstition. Thus, we could suppose that Iranian and Germanic languages had the word farn/fern with the meaning „happiness, peace of mind, grace”.  Therefore,  one has to consider the possibility of both Iranian and Germanic origin of a word in each individual case.  The first part of Arifarn’s name can be explained by the help of Old English: OE. ār, āre „honour”.

12.  Aspar (war-lord of Alanian origin on service to Byzantium of the V cen. AD) – Many researchers tried to decipher the meaning of the name by Iranian and Turkic languages. On prevalent opinion, the name has the Iranian origin. V.Abaev explains the origin of the word out of the I.-e. root (av. spar „to press, come”, os. äfsär). If we suppose that the name of Alans hide ancient Anglo-Saxons, let us attempt to decipher the name by mean of the Old English – OE sparian “to save”,  a- verbal prefix indicative on achievement of result. Thus, the name could mean «well-kept». But several version are possible. If there was OE  ā “always, constant, eternal” in the beginning of the word, then the name had the meaning “eversaved”.

13. Beorgus (Alanian king who intruded to Italy in the V cen. AD) – „having a lot of cattle” (OI bai-var-gau). Supposing the German origin of Alans, we may bear in mind OE beorg 1. „mountain”, 2. „defence”, 3. „refuge”.
14. Eochar (an Alanian leader) – V. Abaev explains the name as „a man who eat millet „ (Os. jäw „millet”, xwärun „to eat”). This explanation seems to be strange in the meaning and phonetically uncorrect. The explanation “mounted courier” is more better (OE eoh „horse” and ār „messenger”).

15.  Eubarnaktes (Tanaida) – out of Os. farn „celestial grace”? But V. Abaev gives no explanation for the first and the last parts of the word. Maybe OE  eoh „horse” bær „cart”,  nacod „empty” will suit better for the name.

16. Quskes ( Olviya) – out of Os. tusk'a „wild boar” or OE. tūsc „fang”. Both words originate out of Turkic čočqa “pig, hog”.
17. Ιδανθιρσος (Scythian king) – Abaev did not include this name in the Onomastikon. The t ranslatiion  of the name  is possible approximately as the «carried, satisfied giant (demon, magician)», if to take into account OE eadan «carried out, satisfied» and  đyrs «giant, demon, magician».
18. Iezdrados (Olvia) – V.Abaev takes for the explanation Os. izäd „deity”. But one can see in the name OE. đræd „filament, wire”, while for the first part of the name OE īse(r)n «iron» suits  semantically well.
19. Iwdas (Pantikapeш) – The origin of the name out of Os od “soul” is possible, if  i  – the article, as Abaev considers.  However we will continue attentively to behave to Old English language. Here we find jeđe and eađe „light, pleasant”. As this root well suits semantically to the meaning „taste” in the next name, one could adopt this variant too.

20.  Iwdesmagos (Olvia) – Abaev’s explanation as “a breathing of life” out of Os od „soul” and  äsmag „smell, breathing” is not bed, but “pleasant taste” out of OE  words  jeđe/eađe „light, pleasant” and smæcc „taste, smell” is possible too.

21. Kojarnos (Tanaida) – according to Abaev „a carrier of good farn” (see Arijarnhs). However words  hu «good» are absent in the Iranian languages. The word could be solved by means the Old English lang: cofa «cave, shanty» and ærn «dwelling».
22. Odiardos (Tanaida) –   „a soul filled up by the ard”  (Os ard „oath”, originally - a deity for swearing)? OE wōd «jealousy, fury» and eard «obedience, fate».
23. Omrasmakos (Tanaida) - Abaev explains the word out of Av rasman „battle column, detachment” which has no accordance in Ossetic language. Attempts to decipher the word by means of several languages did not give the results. The word can be understandid on Germanic language basis as  „sour taste”. F. Kluge restored Germanic word which has accordances in modern German  as *am(p)ra „sour” (foremost there is vegetable acid - Ger Ampfer „sorrel”,  OE ampre „acid”). The words of this root are present in other Indo-european and Finno-Ugric languages (OI ambla „sour”, Lat amarus „bitter”, Mord umbrav „sorrel”,  Komi omra „angelica”). The second part of the word corresponds well to the first one, it means „taste” (G *smakka „taste”, Eng smack, Ger schmecken „to be tasty”). There are no similar word in Finno-Ugric languages therefore Finno-Ugric origin of the word is unbelieable. 
24. Orikos (the son of Scythian ruler Ariapeit) – out of Os. wärik „ram”?  OE wœrig «tired». 
25. Raqagwsos (Olvia) – refering on M. Vasmera, Abaev explains the name as «wide-eared» (OI fratha-gau). Rather the name is based on OE hrađe „swift». For the second part of word it is possible to take OE gōs «goose».
26. Reukanaloi (Sarmatian tribe) – V. Abaev sees in the name metathesis of Reukalanoi and explains it as «light Alans» (OI rauia «light», this root is absent in the Ossetic). However, wthout of transpositions of letters in the name, the word could be deciphered as «severe, wild ancestors», if the first partial word corresponds to OE hreoh «severe, hard, wild», hreogan to «become severe». The second part of word looks like on OE personal name Anela (Goth. Anala), which according to statement of Holthausena originates  from G an «ancestor, forefather». Such form was presented in Middle High German enel «grandfather».
27. Sangibanus (according Jordan, Alanian king in Gallia in V cen. AD) – not quite befits phonetically proposed by Abaev explanation as «possessing power of hand» (Os. cong, persian. čang «hand»). OE sengen „to singe, to burn» with  bān  «leg, bone» suits better.
28. Skopasis (a Scythian ruler) – Abaev did not include this name in his Onomastikon. Maybe, it origonated out of  fOE scop «poet, singer». OE ease „cup» cpould be proposed for the second part of the word. However the Greek sculptor Skopas is known too (Gr. scoy ”owl”).
29. Sjarobais (Pantikapei) – «mason, builder» (OE a spær «gypsum, limestone» and býan “to build”).
30. Spargapeiqhs (it seems to be that there were two Spragapeits, one of them was a king of Agathyrses, Herodotus wrote about this directly, IV, 78) – еру rootspar/sfar  occurs some more in other names, therefore one has to search the explanation of it taking into account  the possible meanings of those names too. This analysis shows, that OE spær «gypsum, limestone» befits best of all. Then we could take OE. pýtan „to carve, to cut» with the prefix ge- for the second part of the word. Thus, the name could mean «carved from a stone». If the name of king of Agathyrses (Agaqursoi)  was explained by means of the Old English, then this ethnonim could also have Germanic origin. We can find in the Old English the word đyrs (thyrs) «giant, demon, magician», what befits perfect to the second part of the ethnonim. OE āga „possessor», āgan “to have, get, restore, to be a due» could be taken for the first part of the word (on the whole something similar to «having giants»). For decoding of the name of grandchild of second Spargapeyta Gnura it is possible to attract dr.ang. gnyrran «sripet, to grind. to crack». The family German words mean – to „roar, growl». The second Spargapeit had a son Lik and a grandchild Gnur, which names are not to be decoded by means of Iranian languages. The name of the grandchild could be explained by OE  gnyrran «to squeak, to grind. to crack». Related Germanic words mean „to roar, to growl». Such meanings do not fit for the name, but a noun derivative from these verbs could be the name of a beast. For example, there is in the Ukrainian the word knur «male of pig», which origin is considered to be onomatopoeical, but other words of such root are absent in the Ukrainian. One can assume that the word is really onomatopoeical, but it was formed in the Old English language, and then was loaned in the Ukrainian. Thus, the name Gnur could mean “wild boar». The name of the son of Spargapeita Lic is solved easier – OE līc «corps, body» could become the name of man of large building.
31. Fadiaroazos (Tanaida) –  herein and in subsequent the names we may see OE  fadian to «lead, conduct». (Abaev proposes for this and next words Oc. fäd which has no semantis connection with the other part of the word).  Probably, the second part of the name is  spoiled OE rœwett „rowing ship», i.e. on the whole – «a helmsman».

32.  Fadinomos (Tanaida) – out of OE fadian to «lead, conduct» and eam (ome) «uncle on a maternal line».

33. Fazinamos (Tanaida) – out of OE fācian “to search, require, to arrive”and  eam (ome) «uncle on a maternal line».
34. Faldaranos (Tanaida) – out of OE «field, plain» and earn «eagle» (“steppe eagle”).
35. Fandarazos (Gorgippia) – out of OE fandian  to «try, test» and  racian to «dominate, lead».
36. Fhdanakos (Tanaida) – out of OE  fadian “to «lead, conduct”.

37.  Fleimnagos (Olviya) – out of OE  fliema «fugitive» and nǽgan «to be approached, attacked».

38. Flianos (Olvia) - out of OE  ang. fleon to «hurry, to evade, to avoid»
39. Flimanakos (Olvia) – see Fleimnagos.
40. Forgabakos  (Tanaida) – according Abaev - clumsy «multiconsuming» (Os. fur-gewäg). It is better – «baked on a fire» (OE  fýr «fire»,  bacan “to bake”,  ga-  the prefix of participle).
41. Forhranos (Tanaida) – again fanciful «multiaryan» at Abaev. The second part of the name can be linked to OE ǽran “to honour», and the first one can be OE preposition for «for».
42. Fosakos (Tanaida) – «sheep» (Os. fus) befits for the name hardly. OE  fūs «aspiring ahead» and āc “the oak» and simultaneous «ship from oak» befits better.
43. Comeuos (Tanaida) – proposed by Abaev «skilful in work» (Os. mewä „employment, work») is doubtful as thete are no accordances for the first part of the word in the Iranian languages. Mayby OE hām «house, village» and æw «law, consuetude, marriage, wife» befit better.

Thus, one seventh part of the Onomasticon can be explaned by means of the Old English. For comparison: only one sixtieth part of the Onomasticon can be explained by means of Armanian lnguage and only one hundredth part can be done by means of Chechenian or Kabardian. This means that the decoding of sufficent part of Scytho-Sarmatian name cannot be made on the basis of whichever language and we may with reason say that roughly one seventh part of Sarmatians had Germanic origin. In fact this part could be greater as there are in the Onomasticon not only Sarmatian but Scythian names too.

 

 

References

1. ABAEV V.I. (1979): Scytho-Sarmatian Dialects. In: Rastorgueva V.S. (editor). The Stems of Iranian linguistics. Mocsow.
2. HARMATTA J. (1952): Studies in the Language od the Iranian Tribes in South Russia. Budapest.
3. KLUGE FRIEDRICH (1989): Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache. Berlin - New York.
4. Pokorny. J.  (1949-1959): Indogermanisches etymologisches Wörterbucn. Bern.
5. Stetsyuk VALENTYN. (2000): Doslidzhennia peredistorychnykh etnogenetychnykh procesiv u Skhidniy Evropi (in Ukrainian) – The Research of Prehistoryc Ethnogenetic Processes in Eastern Europe. Volume 2. Lviv-Kyiv.

And you are very happy with this article?

I think this article shows that there was a huge similarity between Anglo-Saxon (Old English) culture and Iranian culture, for example look at this coin of Offa Rex, one of the most powerful Saxon kings in early Anglo-Saxon England (around the 8th Century):

It is interesting to read: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html

Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran.

A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.

The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.

The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.

The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.

She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark.

Director of the research center of the Cultural Heritage Department, Mazandaran province, Ali Mahforouzi, told CHN that Haupt’s field work will continue for 2 weeks, after which she would go back to Denmark to hopefully announce the results of her studies in 3 months.

Mahforouzi believes that further excavations in European countries may show that old Asian civilizations, especially Iran, have had a more important role in the booming of the European cultures.

If her hypothesis is proved, Mahforouzi said, a great project concerning the relations between the Iranian and residents of the coastal areas of the Adriatic Sea will be triggered. According to him, such discoveries can help attract many scholar-tourists to Iran.

The Cultural Heritage & Tourism Department in the northern province of Mazandaran has some plans to prepare the residents in this region for hosting foreign tourists and has started some archeology classes and exhibitions of their heritage.

People from the south of the Caspian Sea: (Gilan and Mazandaran provinces)

A girl from Rasht, Gilan

or one of the most famous Iranians:

Ali Larijani, from Larijan, Mazandaran
former presidential candidate and head of Iran's supreme national security council and the next chairman of the Iranian parliament

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 11-May-2008 at 13:52