Saxon and Scythian

As I knew Germanic own beliefs and myths won’t change your beliefs!

Bye for now!

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Jun-2008 at 04:13

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri As I knew Germanic own beliefs and myths won’t change your beliefs! Bye for now!

I'm not sure what you mean. What Snorri wrote was not the beliefs of the old Germanic peoples. Being a Christian, he tried to invent a human background of the Norse gods. This has been debunked though.
You obviously haven't made up your mind, since in one moment you claim they were imigrating Scyths and in the next moment you start comparing Norse gods with Iranian gods claiming they are similar (you can't have both!!).

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Originally posted by gcle2003   However you remind me of an interesting translation problem that arose when I was learning. We had to translate a review of the Brando film 'The Men', which raised the question of how the film's title ought to be translated (Brando is a paraplegic in a veterans hospital post WW2). Nobody ever came up with a perfect solution, partly because we were not allowed a plural of chelovek, partly because it has to be gender-specific, and indeed connotate vigour, and partly because of the definite article.   Suggestions?   Well. The use of "cheloveka" is indeed limited to the combination with some numerals. But it's totally literal and is widely used. I can even refer you to the news articles in Russian by the official mass media which use "X cheloveka" if you are interested.    There was "cheloveki" in the Old Russian. It's indeed is not used now and sounds funny. . I guess the word which was referred by those authors was "cheloveki."   But for "The Men" "Liudi" is indeed the best translation. However, "The Three Men" would be "Tri Cheloveka"

You remind me that one of the oddities about my (West Saxon) dialect is that 'mush' means 'man'.  Somehat belligerently, as in "Are you looking at me, mush?"

Sounds good, with the 'ik' in there.

But it turned to almost exclusively linguistic one.

Welcome back, Cyrus. Good to see you again. Anyway, you still owe us your answers to these two questions:

1, How did Scythians (who didn't exist at the time) manage to get into Scandinavia and be ancestral to Germanic tribes??

2, And then you started to deny the existence of PGer - your criterion was probably that it isn't an attested language. But a few questions arise then. Why are you using Persian to back up your Scythian-Saxon theory?? If you don't believe in PGer, then you probably don't believe in Proto-Iranian either. So therefore you can't (by your own logics) link Persian to Scythian. And since we know almost nothing about the Scythian language, it can't be considered (by your own logics) real either. . So is it real or not??

Styrbiorn already explained you that all that Snorri and old Germanic beliefs had in common was the geographical distribution and I explained you that your article doesn't support you at all.

So please could you answer them? (the second one is a yes/no answer so it's easy)

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Slayertplsko, do you want to fool yourself? Saxons could not be an Iranian people just because they used "ik" instead of "adam" ("I" in Old Persian)? Do you know the reason? It is very obvious for me that "ik" comes from the old Persian word "ikvot" (modern Persian "Khod") which also means "I"(emphatical)/"myself", for example read another thing about Rumi: http://www.payvand.com/news/02/nov/1012.html "Vojood-e man azab-khaana-st o aan mastaan dar oo jam'and; Delam heyraan k-az ishaanam, ajab yaa khod man ishaanam" ('My being (or existence) is a brothel house, and the drunkards are gathering there. I wonder if I am one of them, or I am them' D.)

This shows you know nothing of the evolution of Indo-European pronouns.

O.Eng. "Ic," O.Per. "Adam", and Latin "Ego" all stem from Proto-IE *h'egom. This is a well established fact of IE lingustics.

Proto-Germanic wasn't a "real language"?  If that's the case all those historical linguists are going to be out of a job because according to your logic all reconstructed proto-languages are not real. 


Among the branches of IE Germanic and Indo-Iranian are pretty much as far apart from earch other as you can get. Indo-Iranian, Greek, Thraco-Phrygio-Armenian, and Albanian are derived from what linguists call A-group, Yamna, or southern dialects of Late Proto-Indo-European. Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, Balto-Slavic, and Tocharian are derived from what have been called B-group, Corded Ware, or northern dialects of Proto-IE.

The Yamna dialects, for example had what is called the "augment prefix" in Classical Greek for denoting past tense, the Corded Ware dialects did not

Here is some text in the Corded Ware dialects, 2000BC:

Ówis ékwōs-kwe. Ówis, kwésio wl̥̄nā ne est, ékwoms
spekét, óinom ghe gwrum wóghom wéghontm, óinom-kwe mégām bhórom, óinom-kwe dhghmónm
ṓku bhérontm. Ówis nu ékwobhios wewkwét: krd ághnutoi moí, ékwoms ágontm wrom wídntei.
Ékwōs tu wewkwónt: Klúdhi, ówi! krd ághnutoi nsméi wídntbhios: anér, pótis, ówjom-r wĺnām
sébhi gwhermóm wéstrom kwrnéuti. Ówjom-kwe wl̥̄nā ne ésti. Tod kékluwos ówis ágrom bhugét.

In Proto-Indo-Iranian, 1500BC:

Avis ak‟vasas-ka. Avis, jasmin varnā na āst, dadark‟a
ak‟vans, tam, garum vāgham vaghantam, tam, magham bhāram, tam manum āku bharantam. Avis ak‟vabhjas
avavakat; k‟ard aghnutai mai vidanti manum ak‟vans ag‟antam. Ak‟vāsas avavakant: k‟rudhi avai, kard aghnutai
vividvant-svas: manus patis varnām avisāns karnauti svabhjam gharmam vastram avibhjas-ka varnā na asti. Tat
k‟uk‟ruvants avis ag‟ram abhugat.

In English:

The Sheep and the Horses. A sheep that had no wool saw horses, one pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a
big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: “My heart pains me, seeing a man
driving horses”. The horses said: “Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes
the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool”. Having heard this, the sheep
fled into the plain.

Originally posted by Aelle     Hello,   Take a look at this:   http://www.englandandenglishhistory.com/origins_ethinic_english/default.aspx   Very much connections with all North European people.   Original Scythia was what was known as the 'Middle Enclosure' now the Black Sea.   'Second Scythia' is was is now Scania.  I.E. Scandinavia.   Saxons / Angles etc etc - even the Picts come from there.