Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Is Ancient Greece a Western Civilization?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Ancient Greece a Western Civilization?
    Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 06:54
Spain was ruled by muslims for some 600 years. Its the bit in the History book that comes after the Goths/Vandals, and before the reconquista.

German philosphers have existed for centuries, the 1800s is but one chapter in German philosophy. And sure, you can compare them, to find similarities and differences, and discuss what influences would have led to them.

Any country can be compared with any other country, i don't see what your objection there is. And once again i wasn't so much comparing as pointing out that close examination of either of the two would yield things that set them apart from the rest of the 'west'.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 07:11

We don't compare artistic style or the topic of the theories that a writer develops. That does not distinct western from eastern (and please don't think of this distinction as between "good" and "evil"-far from it). What distinguishes is are the" values" that I mentioned before.

No need to compare, therefore, ancient Greeks with modern Germans in terms of context, but you can compare them in generic terms of values, and you will find them identical.

When Thucydides (or was it Xenophon? I always mix the two!) said that "whoever devotes himself in developing a specific skill, he's bound to do it better than anyone else who performs a wider range of similar activities". He said that 20 centuries before the industrial revolution! Weren't the Greeks who first started banking institutions (Alexandria) and made money by lending money? Weren't they the first who declared the need for verifiable and repeatable observations as the basis for science? etc... that is what we refer to when we say that ancient Greece is the origin of the "west". If you like to see it in the context that "it may be the origin but it's not Western itself" fine, but you're wrong...

I rest my case!

 

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 10:12

i think Islam did not consider anybody who are not mentioned in the Quran or the Hadeath as part of its culture

thats why you find most moslims around the world has Arabic names, so i guess greek or any other culture affected the middel east before islam is considered by islamic mind as not part of the modern "Islamic world" even if it was a culture based in the middle east like the Ancient Egyptians. i dont know Islam thinks that they were great but disbelivers who are dammed and Muslims should not name their childern's as the disbelivers.

thats why almost all muslims dont use any none islamic names even if it is from people who lived and died in the middel east.

 

Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 12:58
Eh, there are a crap load of Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh as well as in Indonesia and no doubt elsewhere, who do not have Islamic names.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 15:19
I do not talk about artistic style.I am talking about the essence of every text those writters pass as an example.You cannot compare Finnland with Hellas because the historical backdrop is very different,as well as their geographical positions.Anyway,as i've said it's my personnal opinion and as our great ancestors had said growing you learn.But my current belief is as Yiannis said, it may be the origin but it's not Western itself.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 16:53
And there is also a fu*k load of Vaticanites who are more respectful of the world's cultures and peoples than you! Don't use the phrase "crap load" followed by the name of a group of people please! It's offensive! ThankYou!
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 02:43
Vaticanite?


Edited by Cywr
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 14:58
Vatican guy...
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 16:50
No such word.
But what do you call someone from the Vatican, hmm...
I bet a crap load of people neither know nor care.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 15:54
It's like Greek slang.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 21:42

Originally posted by Cywr

Eh, there are a crap load of Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh as well as in Indonesia and no doubt elsewhere, who do not have Islamic names.

well this thread is not about Islam or Arabs its about Greek and westerners 

 i know iam off the topic too but i want to make my last post more clear, I said almost all muslims has Arabic names, again almost not all

and by the way muslims in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia Do have at least one name of their names shows that they are muslims

and by name of their names i meant like the middel eastern use of names like your name (son of) your father's name (son of ) your grand father name (son of ) ....... and keep going on that way or cut the name in the grand father's name and put the family name.

so in Arabic when we say full name we mention the first and the secound then the familly name. (the secound is the Father's first name also the Familly name is your father's familly name not the mother's.)

iam sure more than 90% of muslims everywhere has at leat one Arabic name in their names

 

 

Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 04:31
well this thread is not about Islam or Arabs its about Greek and westerners 

 i know iam off the topic too but i want to make my last post more clear, I said almost all muslims has Arabic names, again almost not all


Its slightly off topic for sure, but you did bring it up.
Most of the world's muslims live in India (200 million), Pakistan (150ish million), Bangladesh (115 million) and Indonesia (180ish million). Almost all is something of an overstatement.

and by the way muslims in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia Do have at least one name of their names shows that they are muslims


Sure enough many do, but at least as many don't. I'd say from experience that Bangladeshis and Indonesians have the most arabic naming influence, but a good many don't. In India and Pakistan, the muslim inflience has often been Persian, and again, many don't.
I think it could well be down to how 'devout' the parents are, and/or how important some of their muslim ancestors were.
The same is true in Bosnia, with a great deal many Bosnian muslims having regular slavic names.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 05:43

as far as l know alot of  indians and pakistani muslims use Arabic names so are the Persians. if India affected by persian, the persians affected by the Arabs.

and alot of indians and pakistani muslims use a two first name system that they have always Mohammed as their first and the secound first name is their names which they use usually.

so if someone called Omar in india you will find his name in the passport as Mohammed Omar.

UAE where i live has 50% of its population from India, Pakistan and Bangaladish

the only people who does not use arabic names alot are the Indonisians but you will find at lest one of their names Arabic , that if it is not in their first and familly name.

BTW muslims in india are reaching 400 millions, i heard that from the Commercial Minester of India but the Official number in the UN are 12% of india's population which will be around 118 millions.

the official number is not true and has political reasons i think

around 400 millions is what indians officials mentions but they say it "off the record"

 

 



Edited by azimuth
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2005 at 05:08
BTW muslims in india are reaching 400 millions, i heard that from the Commercial Minester of India but the Official number in the UN are 12% of india's population which will be around 118 millions.


Thats not the UN's 'official number', its the number according to the national census of India (seems i was off with 20%). I wouldn't doubt the census too much, if its wrong, its due to a few inaccuracies here and there, so 12-15% is a reasonable guess. That a minister said another number by itself doesn't mean much, if he can back it up with some substance, then i'll take note, because, frankly politicians make fancy claims without substance all the time.

As for Persian names, i was thinking of stuff like Shah and Khan (though i think Khan is from somewhere else).

Meh, i guess we are each basing our opinion on out experience (i live in London, which has some of the largest populations of Indians/Bangladeshis/Pakistanis outside of those three countries, i know a few Indonesians in the Netherlands, but non-of them were muslim so, meh).

Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 18:46

Originally posted by Cywr

[quote]
As for Persian names, i was thinking of stuff like Shah and Khan (though i think Khan is from somewhere else).

 

First of all how's my favortie Vaticanite?

Shah is Persian comes from old Persian Xshayathiya meaning king. Khan is a Mongolian word meaning lord or master (I think, correct me if I am wrong you Mongolian/ancient Turkic people history buffs).

Back to Top
Beylerbeyi View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Cuba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1355
  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 14:50

and by the way muslims in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia Do have at least one name of their names shows that they are muslims

Many Turks have non-islamic Turkish names, and they are as muslim as you are. This was also true during the history: Ertughrul (founder of the Ottoman dynasty), Orhan (his grandson), Tughrul (Selchuk Emperor), Chaghry (his brother), Kylycharslan (another Selchuk Emperor) were all muslims. Besides some traditional Islamic names in the Middle East are not that Islamic, like Iskender, which means Alexander, who, according to Muslim historians/mythologists was a 'believer'.

As to the original question, 'is ancient Greece a western civilisation'. No. Because a 'western civilisation' as a continuity from Ionia to the USA, that spans millenia is itself a myth, created relatively recently. Whereas the ancient Greece was another civilisation of the Mediterranean basin, most similar to its contemporaries, today's reality of 'the West' came to being after enlightenment and especially the dual revolutions in England and France, at the beginning of the 19th century, and fixed into place during the cold war. It is vain to look for aspects in ancient Greece which may be found in today's cultures and to claim that it proves this great continuity. Such aspects can be found in any culture anytime, if you look close enough. One can find many aspects from Indians to Chinese which are more similar to today's west than those aspects from the Greeks of the same era. By being selective, one can prove anything.

I know western supremacists or traditionalists who are stuck in 19th century imperialist/orientalist paradigms as well as the Greeks who seem to enjoy this role created for them by 'the West', won't like these views, but I really think that we should move beyond this binary East/West Occident/Orient bullocks.  

Back to Top
Miller View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 15:09
it depends....


khan  Audio pronunciation of "khan"  P   Pronunciation Key  (kn, kn)
n.
()
A caravansary in certain Asian countries.


[Arabic n, inn, from Persian khn, house, from Middle Persian.]



Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 03:01

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Many Turks have non-islamic Turkish names, and they are as muslim as you are. This was also true during the history: Ertughrul (founder of the Ottoman dynasty), Orhan (his grandson), Tughrul (Selchuk Emperor), Chaghry (his brother), Kylycharslan (another Selchuk Emperor) were all muslims. Besides some traditional Islamic names in the Middle East are not that Islamic, like Iskender, which means Alexander, who, according to Muslim historians/mythologists was a 'believer'.

well there will be at least one name shows their religions.

and as for Iskander, i never heard that there is a muslim called Iskander , christan arabs may use this name but not muslims as far as i know and he is not considered a beliver, its a mix up between Alexander the Great and Du-Alqarnyn who was mentioned in the quran.

so Alexander was not the one who was mentioned in the Quran and it is clear that Alexander didnt belive in one God.

 

 

 

Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 03:59

If this is a mix up, it happened because Alexander was depicted with rams on his head in some coins.

So who is Du-Alqarnyn if not Alexander?

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 05:22
Originally posted by Yiannis

If this is a mix up, it happened because Alexander was depicted with rams on his head in some coins.

So who is Du-Alqarnyn if not Alexander?

yes that is true people and some historians thought that Alexander is Du-Alqarnyn because of the horns on alexander's head on the coins.

Who is Du Alqarnyn is not known for sure, Du alqarnyn is his nickname and it means the Horned man or the man with two horns.

some old historians said that he lived thousands of years before Alexander the Macedonian ( one said that it was 2000 years between them ) and he reach and ruled everywhere east and west ( some say the nickname came from this as he reached west and east which are the Horns of the world)

some modern historian are saying that he is Cyrus the Great, i dont think so.

but intersting thing that alot of old historians call Alexander the Great the secound Du-Alqarneen ( just because of the horns he wore) AND they say that Iskander is a possible name for  the First Du-ALqarnyn

 

 

 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.