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Is Ancient Greece a Western Civilization?

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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Ancient Greece a Western Civilization?
    Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 00:02
So can we consider ancient Greece a Western civilization?

First of all, ancient Greeks never interested in affairs of Europe. Ancient Greeks concerned mostly in the civilizations in Asia, and in Egypt.

Second of all, ancient Greeks never believed themself as Europeans. In fact, ancient Greeks shown some fascination in Oriental civilizations.

Third of all, Hellen influences impacted not only on Europeans but also in Islam cultures as well. In fact, it was Islamic civilization who embraced the Hellenic cultures most than people in Europe during the Middle Age. So, can we considered Islam cultures as part of Western civilizaton? if Greece was the cradle of Western civilization?


Edited by Kids
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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 00:08

Originally posted by Kids

So can we consider ancient Greece a Western civilization?

First of all, ancient Greeks never interested in affairs of Europe. Ancient Greeks concerned mostly in the civilizations in Asia, and in Egypt.

You forget that there was NOTHING going on in Europe. All the wealth and powerful civilizations lie to the east.

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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 00:12
First of all, their wasn't a notion of "European" or "Asian" in 400 B.C.E. Second of all, the Greeks are a Western Civilization, as their geographical location is in Greece, which is after all in Europe - and that's how "Western Civilizations" are grouped.  Third of all, the Greeks had major affairs with lands west to it.  Are you forgetting the invasion of Greece by the Gauls circa 480 B.C.E.?  Or what about the Greek colonies in Southern Italy and Sicily, as well as those on the Mediterranean coastal plains of France and Spain? 

The only reason the Greeks had a major interaction with Asia was because the superpower at the time (in this area) was the Persian Empire, so it was impossible to ignore it.  Before the Persian Wars Greece had minimal interaction with the east, excepting the colonies on the Anatolian coastline and the Trojan War - if you accept that as a true story, which I do.  In any case, had it not been for Darius' invasion of Greece, and the follow up by Xerxes, their is little cause for Greece to intervene in Egypt, as well as other rebellions against Persian rulse.  The entire Greek affair with the Persian Empire sprung from that war, and a constant animosity would follow.  Then of course, you have Alexander's invasion of the Persian Empire, and then his attempted invasion of India, which failed due to his own men. 

In any case, the point is that the Greeks had affairs with both the west and the east, and they were both extremely important with the shapes to come.

Also, another point.  Although Islam does have some noticable aspects that are obviously Greek, most of it isn't.  The religion of Islam sprung up in an area which was left untouched by western conquerors, that of the Macedonian/Greeks and the Romans - the Arabian Peninsula.  Most of the Qur'an was written and formed from Bedouin, and Saracen, nomads and their traditions - not Greek or Roman traditions.  Also, other impacts on the religion were largely semetic influences.

So, in conclusion - Greece is a Western Civilization.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 04:20

It goes more than that. The idea is that the concepts that define what we call today "western world" have sprung from Ancient Greece. Like Democracy, Civil Liberties, human rights, individualism, entrepreneurship, focus on science etc...

I can't elaborate on this now but it's a good topic for discussion... the origins of "Western" culture....

 

E.g. (from Perikles' "Epitaphios")

Our political system does not compete with with institutions which are elsewhere in force. We do not copy our neighbors, but try to be an example. Our administration favors the many instead of the few: this is why it is called a democracy. The laws afford equal justice to all alike in their private disputes, but we do not ignore the claims of excellence. When a citizen distinguishes himself, then he will be called to serve the state, in preference to others, not as a matter of privilege, but as a reward of merit; and poverty is no bar.

... The freedom we enjoy extends also to ordinary life; we are not suspicious of one another, and we do not nag our neighbor if he chooses to go his own way. ... But this freedom does not make us lawless. We are taught to respect the magistrates and the laws, and never to forget that we must protect the injured. And we are also taught to observe those unwritten laws whose sanction lies only in the universal feeling of what is right....

Our city is thrown open to the world; we never expel a foreigner.... We are free to live exactly as we please, and yet, we are always ready to face any danger.... We love beauty without indulging in fancies, and although we try to improve our intellect. this does not weaken our will.... To admit one's poverty is no disgrace with us; but we consider it disgraceful not to make an effort to avoid it. An Athenian citizen does not neglect public affairs when attending to his private business.... We consider a man who takes no interest in the state not as harmless, but as useless; and although only a few may originate a policy, we are all able to judge it. [Emphasis in Popper.] We do not look upon discussion as a stumbling block in the way of political action, but as an indispensable preliminary to acting wisely....



Edited by Yiannis
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 09:45
It's often claimed by some people that Modern Greece is not part of the west along with my birth country Portugal. But, then again others claim it to be the cradle of western civilization. Although, during Ancient Greece, the Greeks saw themselves seperate from Europe. According to history, Greece was a different entity.

Edited by Winterhaze13
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 10:18
Originally posted by Winterhaze13

It's often claimed by some people that Modern Greece is not part of the west along with my birth country Portugal. But, then again others claim it to be the cradle of western civilization. Although, during Ancient Greece, the Greeks saw themselves seperate from Europe. According to history, Greece was a different entity.


As I said, Greece thought temselves different from everyone - all else were Barbarians.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 10:44

Originally posted by DuxPimpJuice

Originally posted by Winterhaze13

It's often claimed by some people that Modern Greece is not part of the west along with my birth country Portugal. But, then again others claim it to be the cradle of western civilization. Although, during Ancient Greece, the Greeks saw themselves seperate from Europe. According to history, Greece was a different entity.


As I said, Greece thought temselves different from everyone - all else were Barbarians.

The Roman empire thought the same thing about the Germanic peoples and others seperate from the Empire.

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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 11:18
Of course - however, the Roman Empire was also more centrally located in Europe, so it doesnt present the 'problem' of classifying it as European or Asian.
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 15:43

It depends on how you define the Western Civilization. Around here the teaching in schools is that western civilization did not start in Europe or in Greece. It started in what is now the middle east. The real division did not come till much later in the history. Remember, if you go back enough in history there is no Europe or even Greece. It would have been impossible for Greeks to come into the picture right next to the ancient civilizations and not to adapt anything from them

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 23:01
First of all, their wasn't a notion of "European" or "Asian" in 400 B.C.E. Second of all, the Greeks are a Western Civilization, as their geographical location is in Greece, which is after all in Europe - and that's how "Western Civilizations" are grouped.  Third of all, the Greeks had major affairs with lands west to it.  Are you forgetting the invasion of Greece by the Gauls circa 480 B.C.E.?  Or what about the Greek colonies in Southern Italy and Sicily, as well as those on the Mediterranean coastal plains of France and Spain?


Actually the term "Asia" was used by the Greek and Romans to mean stuff that's on the other side of the Aegean sea. Troy was considered "Asian" and, since the Romans thought they were Trojans, I guess they technically considered themselves "Asian-descent". 



I'd say Greece should be considered western because it's link with Roman culture is very heavy, as compared to the link between Greek culture and older middle eastern cultures.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 05:08

We have to keep in mind that no culture exists in a vacuum. There are no isolated isles of culture when talking about Europe and "the West". Interactions and cultural fusion are the everyday norm, not some extraordinary event triggered by "invasions" and other granieur actions of cataclysmic proportions.

The marvelous Greek culture did not evolve on an isolated island, but in - literally - the "crossroads of civilizations", the Balkans. The gateway of the "East" to the "West" and vice versa. Greek culture didn't sprung out of the blue, it was a product of a long process of fusion and interaction with both "eastern" and "non eastern" elements.

Also, not to forget that the first distinction between "East" and "West" was made by the Greeks - later the Romans have build upon that concept as well. And that's rather substantial, the notion that the forefathers of "the West" also thought of themselves as a different entity compared to "the Easteners". The Greek genealogy (as formulated by Hesiod, the favorite source of my friend Sharrukin) has got the Romans in it - why do you think that is happening?

What is today defined as "West" has it's rooting on three different legs:

- The general outbuild (the "Western Ideal", so to say) has its roots in the ancient Greek tradition= the concepts of democracy, equality in front of the law, civil liberties, individualism, free trade, curiosity about the universe - what later evolved in science - the love for wisdom (philosophy). Those are all Greek concepts, formulated in the city-states of the 5th century BC first and foremost.

- The legal and administrative aspect of the West draws directly from Rome. Ancient Rome created an administrative miracle, being the first (and only, up to this point) city-state that managed to create and maintain such a vast, multinational, diverse, far-stretched empire. Administration of such a huge empire needs concrete laws and the Lex Romanum in it's various incarnations, is really a marvel of human thought. Also, the Romans have shown an extremely effective way of adopting teachings from their neighbours and incorporate them into their own culture - an ability that is one of the strongest aspects of the modern "Western" world. And not to forget, the affection for progress and constant evolution has also roots in Rome (as it has in Greece).

- The third and equally important factor is the legacy of the Germanic tribes, who became eventually "the West".

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 05:14
Nobody has commented on Perikles speech that I posted above. In my mind it's the epitomy of Western culture! (or at least it should be...)
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 06:57

Yiannis, you made the points I as going to make when I first read the heading of this topic.........

and you did a much better job of it.  Its amazing at how incredibly modern Pericles speech is.  It still rings of freedom today.

We have to keep in mind that no culture exists in a vacuum.

RomanoNero, I couldn't have said it better myself.  LOL...mainly because I have said it many times!

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 16:53

Odd are it is not just a coincidence that Greece was located right next to the middle eastern civilizations and the first European civilization did not appear in in western or northern Europe. If they were to be as independent as some would like to consider them to be. They could have appeared any were in Europe. The evidence point to some kind of connection



Edited by Miller
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 19:43
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus



Actually the term "Asia" was used by the Greek and Romans to mean stuff that's on the other side of the Aegean sea. Troy was considered "Asian" and, since the Romans thought they were Trojans, I guess they technically considered themselves "Asian-descent". 



I'd say Greece should be considered western because it's link with Roman culture is very heavy, as compared to the link between Greek culture and older middle eastern cultures.

<---nevermind--->

Well, the Romans thought that Aeneas was their ancestor - however, Aeneas did not populate Rome - he married into the royal family of Blah Longa (Alba Longa), and several generations later, Romulas and Remus came into the picture of Roman mythology - so the Romans, I suppose, thought themselves as Latin, with a little hint of Trojan to justify their superiority over the rest of Italy.

Edited by DuxPimpJuice
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 21:28

Actually, the Latin Asia was borrowed by the Greek Asia, which in turn derived - most scholars seem to imply - by the Akkadian Asu, meaning "Rising" or "Light", a reference to the "lands of the rising sun" perhaps.

Continuity, again... no culture pops out of nowhere

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 22:16
good work on re-phrasing that. "no culture exists in a vacuum" is Cornellia's,..
guess who i immediately thought of when i came across it in this thread?
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 02:38

Originally posted by Catt

good work on re-phrasing that. "no culture exists in a vacuum" is Cornellia's,..
guess who i immediately thought of when i came across it in this thread?

 

A wild gues... Cornelia?

Well since Cornelia is the resident copyright owner I had to alter it a bit

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 03:25
Second of all, ancient Greeks never believed themself as Europeans.


Yet they were the first to apply the name Europe to Geography (modern day thrace IIRC), and lived there, and thus were the first Europeans.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote io999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 10:08
I agree with Yannis opinion based on democracy and liberty concepts.
I'd just like to add that we can see a move in civilization center over time, with a west direction. Starting in Mesopotamia, then Egypt, Greece, Rome, Franks, etc
I'm just wondering if it was due to nomads invasions from central Asia, so civilized people were trying to go far away from them. Or in other words, the closest (to central asia) societies were striked, while their close west neighbour was getting more strong, preserving the civilization.

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