Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Greeks indigenous?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345
Author
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greeks indigenous?
    Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 04:44
Originally posted by Sharrukin

One of the most intriguing sources comes from the Assyrian inscriptions.  In the first year of the Assyrian king Tiglathpileser I (c. 1114-1076 BC), he had to contend with an invasion of hordes known as the Mushki.  Later Assyrian sources aid us in identifying the Mushki as the Phrygians.  The Mushki had 50 years previously invaded and occupied the northwestern provinces of the Assyrian Empire and were now invading a province adjacent to the Assyrian homeland itself.  Tiglathpileser utterly defeated them and the remnants settled in northern Mesopotamia, which the later Macedonians knew as "Mygdones" which had apparent Phrygian or Mysian affinities (Strabo, Geography 11.14.2, 16.1.23). 
Somehow this 'Mushki' sounds to me as tantalisngly close to 'Meshqi', i.e. those guys who, supposedly, went up north, from somewhere south, and founded the 'Moskva' kingdom, i.e. ancient Moscow.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 22:23

"Moskva" (earlier, Moskov) is derived from the name of the nearby river, the name of which is of unknown origin, but may have a Finno-Ugrian etymology.  The Finno-Ugrian Merya lived in the vicinity, in the 12th century AD, when it was first mentioned as a settlement. 

The attempt by some to link the name to the name of some ancient peoples of Anatolia just does not have substance.  Caution should always be used when trying to equate an ethnonym with another.  In this case there is no documentation showing the migration of peoples from south of the Caucasus, all the way to Moscow.  Much of the interpretation of "Biblical prophesy" for instance, depends on these kinds leaps of faith (and geography). 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 23:00
Sharrukin! It seems that we must welcome you back, since it seems you have 1138 posts to your credit! So! Where have you been all of my life on this site? Laugh!

All in all the above responses on this particular subject were mostly great ones! Lots of good thinking, it seems!

But, rather than assume that a certain blood-line was the origin of the Greek language, why can't we assume that the "language" was forced upon those people who had to learn it or die? What do you think the word "tyrant" to mean?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tyrant

Also, history, as we know it, is repleate with references to either the total decimation of the indigeneous population, or the reported deportations of the same!

So, in my not to humble opinion (chuckle) I would propose that if a great tyrant took over any small nation today, and ordered, upon the force of death, that all citizens of that place adopt Greek as the "new" national language, and if his successors were also successful in keeping the implementation going, then almost any nation, could be converted within a couple of generations! Force is, and always has been, a good guarantee of adoption! Smile!

Thus academia, based upon the death threat, makes one a good learner and a good teacher! (All better to speak to you my dear!) chuckle!

Anyway, it is good to see one of the older members of this site, again amongst the living!

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2010 at 21:02
Highly doubtful.  The known pattern of the earliest state-formations amongst the Greeks shows a pronounced regionalism.  There is no evidence of some all-encompassing tyrant imposing the Greek language thoughout the entire region.  As for the "decimation of the indigenous populaton" the genetics is highly conclusive there.  Greeks have had different origins.  If you consider, for instance, R1a1 as "foreign", well, this haplotype only represents about 10% of the Greek population, while the rest of the Greek population has an earlier Middle Eastern origin.  No "decimation" (at least on a large scale) ever occured.  Ultimately, you don't need some direct intervention of a "tyrant" or a "genocide" to explain why the Greek language became dominant.  Social and economic causes (which we can actually observe) are adequate to explain this.
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 11:14
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Highly doubtful.  The known pattern of the earliest state-formations amongst the Greeks shows a pronounced regionalism.  There is no evidence of some all-encompassing tyrant imposing the Greek language thoughout the entire region.  As for the "decimation of the indigenous populaton" the genetics is highly conclusive there.  Greeks have had different origins.  If you consider, for instance, R1a1 as "foreign", well, this haplotype only represents about 10% of the Greek population, while the rest of the Greek population has an earlier Middle Eastern origin.  No "decimation" (at least on a large scale) ever occured.  Ultimately, you don't need some direct intervention of a "tyrant" or a "genocide" to explain why the Greek language became dominant.  Social and economic causes (which we can actually observe) are adequate to explain this.


Genetic studies are not conclusive and...
It depends on the study and the methodology used. I have seen studies that give the Greeks some connection to the ancients but this link is found throughout the Mediterranean. It is like my old History instructor use to say, "the Greeks are the decendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along." Even the classical Greeks were far from pure and had intermixed with pre-Greek cultures.

I would say the connection to the Byzantines is much greater so I refer to them as being my ancestors.

No "decimation" (at least on a large scale) ever occured.

I am not sure what period you are talking about but no this is not true. The Seljuk and Ottoman Turk invasions were very disruptive for Greece and all of the Balkans. I am sure you are talking about the periods prior to the Turkic invasions though. Please clarify this!

Alexander the Great, because there were so many Greek dialects, unified the language through Koine Greek. A common language helped spread Hellenism throughout his new Empire, too bad he died so young.

I believe what you state is true to a point but it would take more than a paragraph to answer this question.

I am still curious are you related to the people of the New Macedonian Republic, who are a mixed bag themselves. I have no problem with them using this name myself. New Macedonian Republic sound nice


Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 21:19
Genetic studies are not conclusive and...
It depends on the study and the methodology used. I have seen studies that give the Greeks some connection to the ancients but this link is found throughout the Mediterranean. It is like my old History instructor use to say, "the Greeks are the decendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along." Even the classical Greeks were far from pure and had intermixed with pre-Greek cultures.

I would say the connection to the Byzantines is much greater so I refer to them as being my ancestors.

No "decimation" (at least on a large scale) ever occured.

I am not sure what period you are talking about but no this is not true. The Seljuk and Ottoman Turk invasions were very disruptive for Greece and all of the Balkans. I am sure you are talking about the periods prior to the Turkic invasions though. Please clarify this!

Alexander the Great, because there were so many Greek dialects, unified the language through Koine Greek. A common language helped spread Hellenism throughout his new Empire, too bad he died so young.

I believe what you state is true to a point but it would take more than a paragraph to answer this question.
 
Hello eaglecap,
 
The time period that I was addressing (at least according to my understanding of what opuslola was referring to) was the broad period of the Neolithic to the early Bronze Age (i.e. the period prior to the "Mycenaean Period" when Greek is first documented by the evidence of script).
 
The genetic studies I'm referring to can be summed up here:
 
 
where the clades in question are evaluated as being the mostly European developments of clades from Asia and Africa and are given prehistoric origins.
 
I am still curious are you related to the people of the New Macedonian Republic, who are a mixed bag themselves. I have no problem with them using this name myself. New Macedonian Republic sound nice
 
I'm an hispanic from Los Angeles.  The only relationship I have to a "Macedonia" is that a great-grandmother, on my father's side was named "Macedonia", and she was Mexican.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 22:53
Originally posted by opuslola

But, rather than assume that a certain blood-line was the origin of the Greek language, why can't we assume that the "language" was forced upon those people who had to learn it or die? What do you think the word "tyrant" to mean?
I's just thinking, Agamemnon would have made a pretty good candidate, wouldn't he?
 
Originally posted by Sharrukin

If you consider, for instance, R1a1 as "foreign", well, this haplotype only represents about 10% of the Greek population, while the rest of the Greek population has an earlier Middle Eastern origin.  No "decimation" (at least on a large scale) ever occured. 
No freakin wonder! I always thought that many Greeks look so similar to Arabs and Iranians, and vice versa. Just a personal observation. Only perhaps the latter two might have picked up a relatively greater proportion of Asiatic genes over the many millennia. 


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 05-Apr-2010 at 23:08
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 23:06
Originally posted by Sharrukin

The attempt by some to link the name to the name of some ancient peoples of Anatolia just does not have substance.  Caution should always be used when trying to equate an ethnonym with another.  In this case there is no documentation showing the migration of peoples from south of the Caucasus, all the way to Moscow.  Much of the interpretation of "Biblical prophesy" for instance, depends on these kinds leaps of faith (and geography). 
Well, you can't really tell sometimes, Shar. Cos those guys were nomadic peoples always on the move. If the Mongols could reach Palestine and Egypt, well then, anything, any leap, is possible.
 
How about the genetics? Any indications from that department?
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 23:27
Originally posted by opuslola

But, rather than assume that a certain blood-line was the origin of the Greek language, why can't we assume that the "language" was forced upon those people who had to learn it or die? What do you think the word "tyrant" to mean?
I's just thinking, Agamemnon would have made a pretty good candidate, wouldn't he?
 
The problem here is that by the time of Agammemnon, the Greek language was already spread out in the mainland as well as in the Aegean.
 
Originally posted by Sharrukin

The attempt by some to link the name to the name of some ancient peoples of Anatolia just does not have substance.  Caution should always be used when trying to equate an ethnonym with another.  In this case there is no documentation showing the migration of peoples from south of the Caucasus, all the way to Moscow.  Much of the interpretation of "Biblical prophesy" for instance, depends on these kinds leaps of faith (and geography). 
Well, you can't really tell sometimes, Shar. Cos those guys were nomadic peoples always on the move. If the Mongols could reach Palestine and Egypt, well then, anything, any leap, is possible.
 
True, but in the case of the Mongols, it was an organized army, not a tribal migration.  There are no Mongol tribes in the Middle East.
Back to Top
Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 23-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 04:18
But if an army had stayed and settled, which it could do, it could have provided the impetus, for some of the tribes they left behind, to later amble along, gradually, in their wake.
 
By the way, the Mongols did leave numerous descendant tribes in the northern Indian region, e.g. Pakistan and Afghanistan. That's just next door to Iran, the eastern gateway to West Asia.
 


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 13-Apr-2010 at 04:29
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 23:26
But if an army had stayed and settled, which it could do, it could have provided the impetus, for some of the tribes they left behind, to later amble along, gradually, in their wake. 
 
To better help you in your thinking, there was already a precedent to the Mongol invasion of the Middle East - the invasion of a branch of the Oghuz Turks known as the Seljuqs.  They conquered Persia and then proceeded into conquering the Middle East.  A branch of these settled Anatolia and established the Sultanate of Rum.  They were followed by other Turkic tribes. 
 
Now, here's the problem.  Historically, there are consistent routes of migration.  Nomads eventually settled agricultural regions.  Northerners always migrated south.  At the time of writing, I cannot think of agricultural peoples migrating into nomadic regions unless the agricultural region proved to be sparse enough not to feed the population.  In the case of the Caucasus region, history and archaeology shows migration from the north to the south, not the other way around. 
 
By the way, the Mongols did leave numerous descendant tribes in the northern Indian region, e.g. Pakistan and Afghanistan. That's just next door to Iran, the eastern gateway to West Asia.
 
Historic Afghanistan bordered the steppe.  From the beginning of history it had always been subject to invasion of nomads, hence this is really not surprising.  But, the core of our conversation had to do with a people which you surmise migrated north through the Caucasus to the region of Moscow, and gave their name to the place.  There is no record of such a movement and there is no historical precedent for such. 
Back to Top
archaiokapilos View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 14-Mar-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27
  Quote archaiokapilos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2011 at 08:35
there is no great similarity of Greeks with Arabs but there is some similarity with Iranians ( those that look European ). As for genetics, well Greeks have a predominantly Balkan-South European origin with some influences from North Europe and the Middle East
Back to Top
shock and thunder View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 18-Aug-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
  Quote shock and thunder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2015 at 11:50
Originally posted by Rebelsoul

My basic point is this: There was never an invasion of subsequent waves of tribes in the Helladic area and the Greek people are more or less (with the expected intermixtures and absorbing of different elements) indigenous in the area of the southern Balkans.


Very old thread, and I must confess to not reading most of it at this time, but I must lol at this comment.

There have been constant waves of invasions into the Balkans and into Greece even all the way into the Peloponnese. 

The Greeks themselves said that they came from elsewhere, and that the people who lived there already were the Pelasgians
Back to Top
Aeoli View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 13-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 229
  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2015 at 05:26
Originally posted by archaiokapilos

there is no great similarity of Greeks with Arabs but there is some similarity with Iranians ( those that look European ). As for genetics, well Greeks have a predominantly Balkan-South European origin with some influences from North Europe and the Middle East

What about Antiochian Greeks? In Turkey some sources add their population into the Greek population and say with that
Back to Top
Aeoli View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 13-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 229
  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2015 at 05:39
Originally posted by archaiokapilos

there is no great similarity of Greeks with Arabs but there is some similarity with Iranians ( those that look European ). As for genetics, well Greeks have a predominantly Balkan-South European origin with some influences from North Europe and the Middle East

same as  I didn't read all posts. 

During the defeat and dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, many fair hair muslim and Turkificated people came to Anatolia, Albanians, Muslim Georgian and Bosnian radiply Turkificated in Turkish Rebuplic

so I think that same thing could happen in the period of rising Islam. Many hellenised Byzantine Arab, could mix with  children of real Hellen.


Edited by Aeoli - 19-Aug-2015 at 05:40
Back to Top
chicagogeorge View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 05-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2017 at 23:05
No Greeks are not indigenous. Like all Indo Europeans they originated north of the Black Sea and began to migrated 6000 years ago, and the tribes that would develop the Greek language arrived first in northern Greece, Epirus and Western Macedonia around 2300bc and migrated south thereafter


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDF8o5bX6YY&t=637s
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10108
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2017 at 08:58
Welcome back. We don't get to see many long timers.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
chicagogeorge View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 05-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2017 at 16:32
Originally posted by red clay

Welcome back. We don't get to see many long timers.


Thank you. I think I'll start posting here again. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.