That Krishna was a historic person some 4,000 years ago is about as likely as Abraham was around the same time. Or Noah a bit earlier. Or Adam 6,000 years ago.
I have nothing against studying mythology and religion as subjects in their own right - in fact it can be interesting and I've written a book in the field myself - but claiming to treat any of it as historical verges on the insane.
"Most scholars prefer to concentrate on the Mahabharata war where a significant cluster of astronomical events occurred, before zooming onto their own set of dates that binds down the life of the eighth avatar of Vishnu in a specific time-frame. But the dates, while drawn from the same source, strain in opposite directions.
At a colloquium organised by the Mythic Society in Bangalore in January last year, dates as wide as 1478 BC to 3067 BC were proposed. Contributors included S. Balakrishna (from NASA, US), using Lodestar Pro software, who proposed 2559 bc as the start of the war. Prof R.N. Iyengar (from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore) brought the event closer historically, suggesting the date 1478 bc, while B.N. Narahari Achar (Department of Physics, University of Memphis, US) after "critically examining" the astronomical events in the Mahabharata pointed to 3067 BC."
"Most scholars prefer to concentrate on the Mahabharata war where a significant cluster of astronomical events occurred, before zooming onto their own set of dates that binds down the life of the eighth avatar of Vishnu in a specific time-frame. But the dates, while drawn from the same source, strain in opposite directions.
At a colloquium organised by the Mythic Society in Bangalore in January last year, dates as wide as 1478 BC to 3067 BC were proposed. Contributors included S. Balakrishna (from NASA, US), using Lodestar Pro software, who proposed 2559 bc as the start of the war. Prof R.N. Iyengar (from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore) brought the event closer historically, suggesting the date 1478 bc, while B.N. Narahari Achar (Department of Physics, University of Memphis, US) after "critically examining" the astronomical events in the Mahabharata pointed to 3067 BC."
And what happened to the flying aircraft and nuclear devices that were used during the Mahabharata wars? I think all those dates are based on some computer simulation of the most likely time that sort astrological event took place that was mentioned in Mahabhrata when it was written (around 400 BC).
Krishn's era was 3150 BC. He was a historical figure.
So you can quote me the historical texts that confirm this? If the culture was literate in 3150 BC, then how was it written down? You have what? Contemporary inscriptions? Tablets? Steles?
Religious stuff doesn't count, any more than Genesis does. Neither do oral legends.
(And for that matter since when have physicists been aithorities on history, any more than historians on physics? Would anybody pay attention if I organised a conference on string theory addressed by the professors of ancient history at Cambridge and Harvard plus the curator of the Imperial War Museum?)
There are some groups in Hinduism who only follow the Vedas and nothing else they are called the "Arya Samaj" but they are as Hindu as someone who worships Rama or Krsna. Tell me can someone only follow the old testament and be a christian?
well define 'hindu' beyond a label, i suspect your labeling everything from a static point of veiw.
As for people that follow only the old testament; rearrange the books within in it and call it the torah, you will have something very close to the jews. Whats the point? hindus really on the vedas and christains rely on old testament. Jewish books dont become exclusivley christain, if christains believe in them.
Originally posted by Vedam
My point is in Hinduism there are many deities but all Hindus accept the authority of the Vedas, and the Vedas are used in at every major stage of life.
So? all christains accept the authorty of the old testament. all your saying is that the vedas were very influletial in the formation of hinduism. They mix and match different gods and newer ones get formed from older ones. Even the Rig-veda combines them, mitra-varuna
Originally posted by Vedam
The vedas have not dissapeared from Hinduism, but it is true that Hinduism has evolved from the Vedic period, but the vedas are still a major part of Hinduism.
Bravo! one evolved from the other. i never said that the vedahs are dead or missing in hinduism is just that their inclusion doesnt make them exclusivley hindu.
If it has evolved as you agree, then there is difference, hence they are not the same. Its not rocket science
Originally posted by Vedam
With regards to Brahma, Visnu and Shiva, Brahma is Brahmanaspati, Visnu is mentioned 93 times the most famous hymn being book 1, hymn 154 and Shiva actually evolved from Rudra in the vedas, who is also called Tryambakam meaning "the 3 eyed" which is the main characteristic of shiva, the third eye being the eye of destruction. The necklace that shiva wears is called Rudraksh meaning the eyes of Rudra.
I think this all points to continuity
ok wrong about visnu, though he is not an important god but secondary one, nor is he fully developed into what is belived today.
As for rudra becoming shiva, i know about that connection, but it doesnt make a diffrence to my arguement, hec it strengthens it, nor does it make shiva appear in the Rig-Veda. It is not the same thing. You also have prajapati who somehow gets joined as shiva prajapati. Rudra evolving into shiva doesnt make Rudra Shiva all along, same with everything we are talking about Vedam.
Now im not convinced with the brahmanaspati = brahma the creator, please tell me how they are the same rather than the similar names.
In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)
Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"
"Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)
Just like to add an Aelian quote I found:
It is worthy to praise the end of Kalanos the Hindu; one might say even to marvel at it. It happened as follows. Kalanos the Hindu sophist, having bid Alexander, the Makedonians and life a long fair well, wanted to release himself from the chains of the body. A pyre arose in a very beautiful suburb of Babylon. The wood of cedar, thyia, cypress, myrrh and laurel was dry, good for smelling and well chosen. Having stripped in the gymnasium manner, there was even a walkway; he mounted to the middle of the pyre and stood crowned with a wreath of reed. When the rising sun struck him and he bowed down to it, this was the signal to the Makedonians to light the pyre. And it was done. But he stood engulfed by flame unmoved and did not roll over before it went out. They say that Alexander was astonished and said that Kalanoshad defeated greater adversaries than he had.He had striven against Poros, Taxiles and Dareios, but Kalanoshad against pain and death. Aelian, Varia Historia, 5.6
The similarities in all these regions are too hard to miss, it's another thing that nationalistic fervour prevents most persons from admiotting their links with India.
I dont know if anyone else realizes the significance of Aelians text but it places Hinduism in Babylon in the time of Alexander the Great (330 BC).
That is, if the text has been correctly translated from Aelians Greek to modern English.
Also, since this event recorded by Aelian is said to have occurred while Alexander was still alive, it therefore predates the quote from Megasthenes:
"Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)
because Seleucus Nicator was the Macedonian army general who founded the Seleucid kingdom after the death of Alexander the Great.
Hence, both Aelians quote and Megastheness quote verify each other.
What has also interested me is the part where Kalanos the Hindu sophist is said to have stood crowned with a wreath of reed.
It is true, but the west likes to belive otherwise, it would indicate an eastern origin to Christianity, which the Europeans would not have liked to belive.
(Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)
um........
The work of Godfrey Higgins, Anacalypsis, is quite nearly as hard to find as two-headed chickens, and it is nearly as normal as one.
I
had little hope of actually getting a copy of it by special library
loan, but lo and behold, it came. And once I saw it, I knew I wouldn't
be able to do much with it -- this monstrosity is composed of two
volumes larger than a New York City phone book, with type as dense as
the entries. It cites few sources for its claims, but those it does
cite are the sort of things you won't find down the street either --
anyone wishing to back-check all of Higgins' comments will be in for a
real lifetime chore, even if they live in the UK. There is no telling
whether the bulk of Higgins' sources are credible or not (though we do
have some hints). And to make matters worse, I could only secure it by
loan for two weeks.
So what to do? Thankfully, all that needs to be done is exactly what I had time for. I went through as much of Anacalypsis
as I could, writing down the most clearly ridiculous and easily
refutable propositions. Not that there were not other oddities that
could be so refuted; but it runs down to that Anacalypsis is
full of assertions that are either undocumented or come from sources
whose credibility is completely unknown in this time, so our goal will
merely be to show what sort of nonsense Higgins promoted throughout his
work, so that those who use him as an authority (like Acharya S and Tom
Harpur) will be compelled (if they are interested in the truth, which
they are not) into defending his worth and explain why we ought to find
Higgins a credible authority on the grounds that they do use him for.
It is also, furthermore, that Higgins is so outdated that any arguments
he makes based on dating, language, and so on, require at this time a
full re-argument before they can be accepted. And now, we proceed to
our "spot check" of Higgins.
Of
particular embarrassment to anyone who uses Higgins is his endorsement
of the idea that the world was once ruled by an ancient, advanced
civilization. "Druidical and Cyclopaean buildings scattered over the
world, in almost all nations, which I soon became convinced were the
works of a great nation...." [viii] All of Asia was once ruled by black
people who were Buddhists [255] and these Buddhists were colonizers of
Egypt and "worshipers of the Sun in Taurus". [267]
Higgins' ideas about linguistics would also bring howls of
laughter from those competent in that field. He says: Hebrew is the
oldest language [x]; Latin is the same language as Sanskrit [2] (though
Higgins also says, "I am ignorant of the Sanskrit language" [12!].
Did you know that trees give us a clue about languages and
their origins? "...[C]areful comparison of the names of different
letters in Irish, Hebrew, Samaritan, and Greek alphabets make it
'appear almost certain that they have all been called after the trees
which now grow in the latitude of England, or else that the trees have
been named after them." For example, A = ailm in Irish, or elm. Also M = mu, mem, or vine.
But where's the M in vine, then? It was, um, "dropped for some unknown
cause." [13] But the Asiatics nevertheless "called their sixteen
letters after the Irish names of trees." [14]
Higgins does anthropology, and tells you that sunburn makes
you dumb: "...the angle at which the plane of the eclipse makes with
the plane of the equator was much larger than it is at this moment: the
effect of which would be to increase the heat in the polar regions, and
render them comfortable places for their inhabitants." Thus "the
northern climes were probably the birth-place of man." [210] "Now I
suppose that man was originally a Negro, and that he improved as years
advanced and he travelled westwards, gradually changing from the jet
black of India, through all the intermediate shades of Syria, Italy and
France, to the fair white and red of the maid of Holland and Britain.
On the burning sands and under the scorching sun of Africa, he would
probably stand still, if he did not retrograde. But the latter is most
likely to have happened; and accordingly, we find him an unimproved
Negro, mean in understanding, black in colour." [284] One "Dr.
Pritchard" has "successfully proved" that "blackness of skin is not
cause by heat alone" but "is to be ascribed more to civilisation". (The
irony here is that Higgins is used as a source by Massey and Kuhn, and
they in turn are often used by African-American "revisionsist" writers
like Yosef ben-Yochanon who seem to be unaware of Higgins' racist
sentiments.)
Also, the Jews were actually "a tribe of Hindoo or Persian
nomades or shepherds." [367] Abraham is Brahma and Sara is Saraiswati.
Remember that "medal" alleged to have been found in the
pre-Christian ruins of Citium? We have more on that [219]. It was drawn
by a "Dr. Clarke" who "shews [it] is Phoenician, and therefore of great
antiquity" (how, is not explained). We'd still like to know where this
medal is now. The "Dr. Clarke" is actually Daniel Clarke, who was a
mineralologist and thus no one who may be trusted to assess ancient
artifacts.
The common use of chants, music, and pilgrimages are taken as
evidence that Tibetian Buddism is the same religion as Christianity
[233]. Also, "Every part of Christianity refers back to Abraham, and it
is all Freemasonry." [790] So Tibetian Buddhism is also Freemasonry.
"Buddha was Bacchus, Christna was Hercules, in reality, one 2160 years after the other." [254]
When the evidence doesn't back Higgins, it's not because he is
wrong but because someone is hiding something: "I cannot believe that
the Brahmins did not know the meaning of the word Agnus; their wish for
secrecy can be the only reason that I can imagine for the signification
of it not being found in their dictionaries." [263]
"Mr. Faber" says that Jesus was not originally called Jesus
Christ, but "Jescua Hanamasiah." "Ham" is the same as "Om" in India.
[315]
Higgins on church architecture: "...[O]ur churches were built
in the inconvenient oblong form, instead of square or round, in
imitation of mystic ships called Argha from mysteries of Egypt." This
is why they have a section called a "nave". [344-5]
That Rome, Constantinople, and Troy were all built on seven
hills "tends to shew that one secret system was at the bottom of them
all." [360]
The Twelve Caesars of Rome recorded by Suetonious are the 12
signs of the Zodiac. Their title is after the Celtic god of war, Aesar.
[369] No, there were not actually 12 such leaders in history, because
"judicial astrology has corrupted almost every history which we
possess."
Matt. 16:17-19 needs a new exegesis. Peter son of Jonas? The
latter is the same as Janus (the Roman god) and Ioni, "the generative
principle". "Stone" or Peter is an "emblem if the make generative
principle" and is the same as a sacred stone found "in India at every
temple" and obelisks in Egypt, and the "single stone found near every
Gilgal or Druidical circle" as well as the stone found at Westminster
Abbey. [644-5]
If you think Higgins might make sense somewhere, let me
provide the following as typical babble-speak of his, all of it
provided without a shred of corroborative documentation:
As Jesus was IXOYE with the mystic monogram, I,
prefixed, I-IXOYE, and the deity of Egypt was Omtha with the mystic
monogram M, prefixed, M-OMtha, so may Ixion, divine one crucified, have
been X-ion with the mystic X prefixed, and again, Caesar X-aesar and
the Iokn may have been the Ione of Spiritus Mundi, the Dovem the
crucified Semiramis, who flew away in the form of a Dove." [658]
Say WHAT?
Higgins uses the Kabbalah, medieval Jewish occult material, to
interpret the pre-Christian Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach as occult
documents. [712]
Freemasonry originated in ancient Hindustan [725].
Jesus was black and went to Italy, which is why we see black infant Christs in Italy. [751]
Trying to prove mystic significance to the number 72 is a
chore for Higgins. "The rabbis maintain that the angels who ascended
and descended Jacob's ladder were seventy-two in number." "The
Kabalists found seventy-two names of God" in Exodus 14:13-21. "In
Numbers xxili.9, Exod. xv.27, we read of seventy palm trees. Of course
the number ought to be seventy-two." The Greek king Solon made
monetrary adjustments so that the value of a mina was changed from 72
drachma to a hundred. [780-2]
Higgins has something for all you Muslims out there, too.
"Mohammed was called a Saca of Saceswara, as well as a Vicramaditya.
These are all descriptive epithets. And from the fact named above we
find the reason why the Mohamedens spared the statues of Buddha in
India: It strongly confirms the doctrine of the secret religions of the
Mohamedens. Mohammed was thought to be a renewed incarnation of divine
wisdom, and of course of Buddha, in his tenth avatar." [v2, 2]
The book of Esther is part of the annals of the kings of Persia [17].
Mormons may like this one: The gods of India and Mexico are
the same [23]. "Mexico" is Mesi-co, and since Hebrew msih = Messiah,
"Mexico" is the "country of the Messiah."
As noted, we don't know much about Higgins' sources, but one
he does use we know about: The unreliable Robert Taylor, who may have
been the first to use the bogus Pope Leo X quote, and who confused a
hymn to Jesus with one for Prometheus.
John the Baptist was a Mithraist, as were the Essenes. The
place he baptized, Aenon, is "sacred to the sun." [66] His reference to
being baptized by fire is to be connected to a rite in Scotland in
which baptized children are swung over a fire three times. [67]
The Jews had a "secret doctrine" of crucified avatars. [115]
And need we say more? Higgins' editor admits that Higgins was
criticized by scholars who "felt that amateurs had no place in their
special fields" [459], so even in his day he was obviously considered
off the wall. How much more so today in light of what we know now?
Anyone using Higgins as a source had best explain themselves as well as
Higgins.
It is true, but the west likes to belive otherwise, it would indicate an eastern origin to Christianity, which the Europeans would not have liked to belive.
This is true.
There's no doubt much of what is today labelled as Christianity, Judaism and even Islam originated from the regions and religions of ancient India.
However, in my view, there are a few aspects of modern Christianity which have a Western European origin whereby this smaller portion is usually called pagan.
I say about 5% of the bible books, mainly Revelation, contains genuine Christian European religious literature.
Their seems to be one small difference. Tibet is not shown as a part of the ancient India. Tibet is the most important place in Indian religion / mythology / culture. It is the home of Indian gods.
Earlier in this century, before being usurped by China, tibet wanted to become a part of India rather than China, but our stupid prime minister Nehru wanted to forward his own stupid principles. So it was lost to chinese.
The information on it seems to be properly referenced.
seems? check your references first.
this is all speculation, creative speculation, passed off as fact. i'll just look at a very small portion of this supposedly 'properly referenced' site
Elohim; Elokhim (God intellectualized) Lakhimi(Goddess of Prosperity); Lokhi; Lukh(Shiva)
wrong. elohim is god with a pluralised and masculine ending
El Shaddai (God of the Mountain)
God almighty
Ha-Kadosh
(The Holy One)
translation is correct. its 'hakkadosh', how its connected to "Hakh-e-Kheda
(Gods Duty)" is beyond me. Maybe the maori 'hakka' is gods dance
Yesoda (Dual Sexual Nature of Life)
um jehova? find me a jewish text with that name please.......
Yahve; Jahve; Tseeva (God)
its YHWH, ok.just 4 letters so it shouldnt be hard to spell it correctly. No vowels
no one can say for certain what and how to pronounce the vowels, its too sacred to be writen and spoken of which i suspect is not the case for hindus and their gods.
1530, Tyndale's erroneous transliteration of Heb. Tetragramaton YHWH, using vowel points of Adhonai "my lord" (see Yahweh). Used for YHWH (the full name being too sacred for utterance) in four places in the Old Testament in the K.J.V. where the usual translation lord
would have been inconvenient; taken as the principal and personal name
of God. The vowel substitution was originally made by the Masoretes as
a direction to substitute Adhonai for "the ineffable name." European students of Heb. took this literally, which yielded L. JeHoVa (first attested in writings of Galatinus, 1516)
Aramaic,
a language as similar to Hebrew as Spanish is to Portuguese, originated in
Afghanistan and Pakistan.Both
Afghanistan and Pakistan were once part of India.Afghanistan seceded from Indian in the 1700s.Pakistan was cut out of India when the two
nations were partitioned after World War II.Aramaic also is the source of modern Hebrews square alphabet, used in
Israel today.
The source of the 'square' alphabet lies in babylon during their captivity, and aramiac is a semetic language from the syrian part of the M/E.
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Topic: Abrahams Origin in India?
just saying so doesn't make it happen 
