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Abrahams Origin in India?

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Abrahams Origin in India?
    Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 00:05
Originally posted by Boreasi

Leonidas,
 
That takes us back to the Aryans - that seem to have brought sanskrift through Persia to India. From where did they come?
 
And - btw; who brougth writing to Crete, and thus the entire Mediterranean? If the Phoenicians as well as other Semits where a returning branch from the Aryans of India ("Indo-Aryans") we cant blame them anymore for the origin of the Greek and Roman alphabeths...!
non-sense,  the ancient aryans did not bring sanskrit through iran. Sanskrit is a indic deviation not a root language and there is no proof of that branch of IE preceding the aryan invasions or being used in Iran or anywhere else before india

It is widely belived that Sanskrit devolped in south asia from a outside IE precursor. A proto language that eventually split between indo - and iran would be more likely, look at very isolted tribes like the kalash in a linguistic way and you my find traces of it their.... (BTW they speak a Iranic language)

Also, semites are not indo-european.

 The cretans (i assume you mean Minoan) used a script that, as far as i know, was not from phoenicia (rather that would be our greek alphabet),
Further the greeks , it seems had trouble using the minoan script this would suggest completly different languages (it is assumed phonetics)....



Edited by Leonidas - 07-Oct-2006 at 06:51
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 16:31
Leonidas,
 
I expect that the "Aryans" were "Caucasians". 
 
 
 
If so, the caucasian Aryans that arrived in India would ONE off-spring, both etnically and culturally, from the same "proto-arians" - who ALSO sent their off-springs to the lands of Persia and Greece.
 
Developing regional characteristics these different groups were still in inter-action with each other via travel and trade. The traces of trade between Myanmar, India and Peria goes back several millenias. So does the traces from trade between Persia, Greece, Rome and northern Eurasia. According to the recent repports rom Oxford, etc. (Barry Cunliffe et al) there were well-established trade going between the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean areas already 7.000 years ago.  The famous amber-trade, between the Baltic and Greece/Egypt as well as Caucasia/Persia was even OLDER.
 
A stable trade is based on local production, regional interaction and national management - to become inter-national.  Thus language and all other cultural expressions had to be exchanged - over inter-continental disctances - long before a specific tribe, from which Abraham belonged, (had to?) split from India, to move west - in search for a "promised land".  
 
Btw.: The Romani-people - often called Gypsies - are another, related group of people who hit the road out of India. (Wheter they are aryans, caucasians or something else doesnt matter really, unless we care about the research of the Jews and Gypsies - and their true roots and origin.)
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 11-Oct-2006 at 16:35
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:10
The Gypsies were till late a separate identity in india, so were the Indian jews who resided in the same part of the country.

And the so called aryans may have invaded other places from somewhere, but in india we don't have any aryan race. If there was an invasion / migration, they surely didn't come to India.

The ancient Assryian / babylonian / egyptian civilizations are of mu / polynesian /  melaynasian / dravid origin.
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 14:36
Vivek,
 
The etnologists - as well as the Gypsies themselves, seem to agree that their etnic origin was in the NW of India.  Perhaps they even set out to emmigrate simultaniously of the first Rabis and Bramanis, that eventually took new setlements in the west - eventually starting the Semittic branches of Arabia and the Levant.
 
---
  
The origin of both these peoples seem to have been Aryan, - as in Indo-Aryan. Presuming that the NW India was populated by an Aryan/Caucasian culture that spread as ice-time ended, when the new continental culture spread all over the globe. Viewing the archeological results form the last 100 years it seems fair to conclude that the period from 8.500 to 10.000 BP seem to be the "Time of Civilisation"  - not only in India, but all around the equator. Which seems to benefit the "theory" of an cultivating impulse reaching India, as well. Wetter those are called "Aryans" or "Atlanteans" or "Lemurians" doesnt matter that much. If we follow classical etnology we should call them "Caucasians".  
 
Wiki, quote;
 
The term Caucasian race, Caucasian or Caucasoid is used to refer to people whose ancestry can be traced back to Europe, North Africa, West Asia, Indian subcontinent and parts of Central Asia [1], a region known as the Caucasus.
 
 
Reading Indian sources on Indian history we get a confirmation of this axiom, were the term "aryans" again are exclusively used - to explain the cultures of ancient India.
 
Quote;
 
 
 
 
So what is it gonna be; Caucasian> Aryan> Indian - or not?
 
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 12-Oct-2006 at 14:38
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 14:37
Language and  etnicity in the Asia Minor;
 
 
 
**************************************************************************************************************************************
 
 
"I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage."  
 
 
(In ca.521, the Persian king Darius I the Great ordered that a new alphabet, the Aryan script, was to be developed. This was used for a small corpus of inscriptions, known as the Achaemenid Royal Inscriptions. An overview of all inscriptions can be found here.)


Edited by Boreasi - 12-Oct-2006 at 14:40
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 02:29
Dear Boreasi,

Most of what you said is correct except for the following :

The Gypsies & the Jews resided in the North East of India not the North West.

No Indian literature, custom, culture or tradition or folklore or mythology speaks about an invasion or migration into India by anybody.

The word Arya means noble in India. It doesn't denote any race & has never done so. Any noble person could be called an Arya. Those who were not noble were Anarya (An = not)

The aryans may have been fair & caucasoid in other countries, but the most heroic persons referred to as arya in India, including most of the prominent gods are black.

I don't say that Aryas were not white elsewhere, but the so called Indian aryas were not white / fair.

Indian's don't even qualify as Arya in the western meaning of the term as all our tradition is contrary to what is stated in the west about our tradition.











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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 02:06
Abraham (Abram+ham) ham meaning darkness and majesty. remember god told him to change his name to Abramham and shari to shara. if the is from India is must be of dravidian descent, because the where around at that time an where located onthe southern side of India. also the Dravidians are said to have migrated tothe south nofter the Aryan invasion and out to the pacific Island and Austrialian. If you did not Know by now the Dravidians orignated from the Nile valley as did the Sumerians. Egtians sy they orignated from the end of the nile witch is Tanzania, at Mount Kilmujaro. Egytians (kimit=land of the blacks) are said to originated fom Nubia. the staues don't lie black. to sugest this means that what you write might Smilebe correct
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 02:09
Your on point. I just look at how whites of today try claim everything (Columbus) as well as in the past (Alexander the Great) why not India
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 02:19
if there was a such thing as a Aryan Hitler never found any evidence of that. he sent out 100's of expeditions looking for Swatikas next or on someting to potray whites where aryans.
   Besides the indegious dravidans are the true originaters. all the the oldest statues look like them and the gods. Black not fair skined 
  People gods look like them Osiris=black (Egypt)
modern picture of Budda =Chinese (old staues black) 
modern picture of Jesus as painted by Micheal Angelo=White. bible describes as brassed skined and wolly hair; black
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 02:48
Originally posted by Boreasi

Leonidas,
 
I expect that the "Aryans" were "Caucasians". 
 
 
 
If so, the caucasian Aryans that arrived in India would ONE off-spring, both etnically and culturally, from the same "proto-arians" - who ALSO sent their off-springs to the lands of Persia and Greece.

that what im saying. Basically sanskrit is just one offshoot rather than the root language of IE
 
Originally posted by Boreasi

Developing regional characteristics these different groups were still in inter-action with each other via travel and trade.
well alot of the regionlism would be IE invaders/ elite incorperating the already established cultures they took over. Cross pollination. The greek IE's would of become, well, greek (as we know it) by taking on some of the more unique local culture and translating it their own way, or more likely vise versa, the locals translating the IE culture their own way. Sansrkit/indian culture is not unique or different to this proccess.

 
Originally posted by Boreasi

A stable trade is based on local production, regional interaction and national management - to become inter-national.  Thus language and all other cultural expressions had to be exchanged - over inter-continental disctances - long before a specific tribe, from which Abraham belonged, (had to?) split from India, to move west - in search for a "promised land".
  it plausible that there is a connection between brahmin and abraham but i need to see real evidance nor do i see the brahmin as a subsitute for some concieved mono-block indian infleunce. did the brahimn influence or define india in its entirilty that long ago? i doubt it



Edited by Leonidas - 15-Oct-2006 at 02:55
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 01:55
Originally posted by dhardin

if there was a such thing as a Aryan Hitler never found any evidence of that. he sent out 100's of expeditions looking for Swatikas next or on someting to potray whites where aryans.
   Besides the indegious dravidans are the true originaters. all the the oldest statues look like them and the gods. Black not fair skined 
  People gods look like them Osiris=black (Egypt)
modern picture of Budda =Chinese (old staues black) 
modern picture of Jesus as painted by Micheal Angelo=White. bible describes as brassed skined and wolly hair; black


Right, the persons presently called dravidians were the most advanced civilization in the ancient world. Even to this day most Indian Gods are black not white as the supporters of the Aryan invasion theory would like us to belive.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 03:01
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Originally posted by dhardin

if there was a such thing as a Aryan Hitler never found any evidence of that. he sent out 100's of expeditions looking for Swatikas next or on someting to potray whites where aryans.
   Besides the indegious dravidans are the true originaters. all the the oldest statues look like them and the gods. Black not fair skined 
  People gods look like them Osiris=black (Egypt)
modern picture of Budda =Chinese (old staues black) 
modern picture of Jesus as painted by Micheal Angelo=White. bible describes as brassed skined and wolly hair; black


Right, the persons presently called dravidians were the most advanced civilization in the ancient world. Even to this day most Indian Gods are black not white as the supporters of the Aryan invasion theory would like us to belive.
 
On this, this actually supports Aryan theory. The Aryan Gods were all mentioned in the Rig Veda and were a creation of the Aryan invaders(?) into the Pakistan Indus area (Indra). Some of these Aryan tribes then moved to the Gangetic areasand mixed in and other Gods were created, this time darker ones (Krishna etc).
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 04:18
Yes it supports the fact that the so called pakistan is a 50 year anpmaly waiting its rightfull return to where it belongs, to the mainstream !!!
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 16:45
Tele
 
Does the rig veda have its root in present day pakistan?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:22
Originally posted by malizai_

Tele
 
Does the rig veda have its root in present day pakistan?
 
Yes, the Rig Veda was written by the Aryans (Vahikas) in ancient Pakistan. Sanskrit was also evolved by the ancient Pakistanis.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 16-Oct-2006 at 19:28
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  Quote Vedam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 00:04
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by malizai_

Tele
 
Does the rig veda have its root in present day pakistan?
 
Yes, the Rig Veda was written by the Aryans (Vahikas) in ancient Pakistan. Sanskrit was also evolved by the ancient Pakistanis.
TeldeInduz get your facts straight. The rig veda was memorised  and not wriiten down for the first 2 thousand years,  the sacredness is in the in the sound of the Mantras.
It mentions all the rivers of Punjab, last time i checked Pakistan did not have the Beas river and the Sutlej also goes through india, the Vedas also mention the Kabul, Ganges and Yamuna rivers, and most importantly Sarasvati which i didn't know were all in Pakistan!!!
The most famous and important tribe of the Vedas were the Bharatas, and they with the Kurus,  PanchalAs, and Yadus, also very prominent tribes moved eventually into the Ganges-Yamuna area.
Pakistan is a new nation part of India until 60 years ago.
Tell you what go into a bookshop and see if they have 2 different books, one saying "Ancient India" the other saying "Ancient Pakistan", that you keep going on and on aboutLOL
  


Edited by Vedam - 17-Oct-2006 at 04:57
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 01:02
Cool down Vedam. It's a tragic situation. What will a person who doesn't have any history do when he sees others talking about their glorious ones. The only solution left is to appropriate / encroach upon someone's history franatically.  
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 01:45
Leonidas,
 
Originally posted by Boreasi

A stable trade is based on local production, regional interaction and national management - to become inter-national.  Thus language and all other cultural expressions had to be exchanged - over inter-continental disctances - long before a specific tribe, from which Abraham belonged, (had to?) split from India, to move west - in search for a "promised land".
 
Quote Leonidas;
 
" it plausible that there is a connection between brahmin and abraham but i need to see real evidance nor do i see the brahmin as a subsitute for some concieved mono-block indian infleunce. did the brahimn influence or define india in its entirilty that long ago? i doubt it"

 


I think the civilisation found in Harappa is one of the oldest found in the Indian subcintinent (incl. Pakistan and Bengal). The traces found in Cambay seem to prove ages as of 10.000 yrs BP.
 
Until this time it seems that the entire area has a Dravidian population, language and culture. At some point the Aryan arrived, contributing with agriculture, architecture and litterature. The Go-vind-as and Guptas seem to have initiated the Sanskrift that later produced the Vedas, Upanishads and other annals. 
 
Later these annals tells of Krisna and the great convulsions that followed his regime, as described in the Mahabarata. The shattering effect of warfare seem to have produced refugees of some sort, - that chose to flee the country. Many of these could perhaps be high-ranked noblemen from a loosing army. Migrating to the north-west -  and their old trade-camps in the Persian Gulf - would be a logic option. This background may also explain the royal titles worn by the wandering descendants of Ibrahim...
 
 
 
  


Edited by Boreasi - 17-Oct-2006 at 01:48
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:01
Originally posted by Vedam

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by malizai_

Tele
 
Does the rig veda have its root in present day pakistan?
 
Yes, the Rig Veda was written by the Aryans (Vahikas) in ancient Pakistan. Sanskrit was also evolved by the ancient Pakistanis.
TeldeInduz get your facts straight. The rig veda was memorised  and not wriiten down for the first 2 thousand years,  the sacredness is in the in the sound of the Mantras.
It mentions all the rivers of Punjab, last time i checked Pakistan did not have the Beas river and the Sutlej also goes through india, the Vedas also mention the Kabul, Ganges and Yamuna rivers, and most importantly Sarasvati which i didn't know were all in Pakistan!!!
 
The Rig Veda mentions the Indus, Gomal, Kurram and Kabul and Swat Rivers. The center of the Rig Veda is in Punjab. The Indus is the most commonly mentioned River in it, and the Sutlej is a tributary of the Indus that flows through the Punjab. The Jamuna River is also mentioned, but it is clear from the Rig Veda that these people were centred on the area of Pakistan (Punjab). They were an Indus Valley people. Only later are hymns added that include the Ganges..this is no doubt hymns that were added on after some Aryan tribes migrated from Punjab to the Gangetic areas.
 
The most famous and important tribe of the Vedas were the Bharatas, and they with the Kurus,  PanchalAs, and Yadus, also very prominent tribes moved eventually into the Ganges-Yamuna area.
Pakistan is a new nation part of India until 60 years ago.
Tell you what go into a bookshop and see if they have 2 different books, one saying "Ancient India" the other saying "Ancient Pakistan", that you keep going on and on aboutLOL
 
A couple of tribes did move from the Indus to the Ganges area. They moved at the end of the Rig Vedic period. But the Rig Veda is a collection of hymns from the area of ancient Pakistan, not India. 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 17-Oct-2006 at 08:03
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:47
Originally posted by Boreasi

Leonidas,
 
Originally posted by Boreasi

A stable trade is based on local production, regional interaction and national management - to become inter-national.  Thus language and all other cultural expressions had to be exchanged - over inter-continental disctances - long before a specific tribe, from which Abraham belonged, (had to?) split from India, to move west - in search for a "promised land".
 
Quote Leonidas;
 
" it plausible that there is a connection between brahmin and abraham but i need to see real evidance nor do i see the brahmin as a subsitute for some concieved mono-block indian infleunce. did the brahimn influence or define india in its entirilty that long ago? i doubt it"

 


I think the civilisation found in Harappa is one of the oldest found in the Indian subcintinent (incl. Pakistan and Bengal). The traces found in Cambay seem to prove ages as of 10.000 yrs BP.
 
Until this time it seems that the entire area has a Dravidian population, language and culture. At some point the Aryan arrived, contributing with agriculture, architecture and litterature. The Go-vind-as and Guptas seem to have initiated the Sanskrift that later produced the Vedas, Upanishads and other annals. 
 
Later these annals tells of Krisna and the great convulsions that followed his regime, as described in the Mahabarata. The shattering effect of warfare seem to have produced refugees of some sort, - that chose to flee the country. Many of these could perhaps be high-ranked noblemen from a loosing army. Migrating to the north-west -  and their old trade-camps in the Persian Gulf - would be a logic option. This background may also explain the royal titles worn by the wandering descendants of Ibrahim...

You are right. There are these instances to support the outward migration, when the persons defeated migrated in many cases. But their are no records or instances to show that their was an Aryan invasion. There was nothing called as an aryan race invading. It was a  clash of beliefs not races.
 
 
 
  


Edited by Vivek Sharma - 18-Oct-2006 at 00:55
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