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Abrahams Origin in India?

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Abrahams Origin in India?
    Posted: 10-Jun-2012 at 20:19
Abraham an Indian? I thought he came from Ur?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2006 at 00:09
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

(Vivek Sharma) Krishn's era was 3150 BC. He was a historical figure.(end)
 
So you can quote me the historical texts that confirm this? If the culture was literate in 3150 BC, then how was it written down? You have what? Contemporary inscriptions? Tablets? Steles?
 
 
Good point!
 
All religions usually like to set dates well into the past. That does not mean the books were written at those dates, though.

So what ? Did I say anything to the contrary.

 
In the case of India, I perceive a tendency by some to exagerate the antiquity of the writings.

 & I notice a tendency by others to try to surpress the indian antiquity out of some fear of god knows what or some complex or vested interests.

As far as I know, classical Indian religious literature was put on writing since the late first milenium B.C., and perhaps later.

But unfortunately you do not know much about the subject. Just because you have not been exposed to it.
 
Now, India traditions, stories and believes could be a lot older than the literature, transmitter orally, but then there is not hope dates are precise.

Again the same complex at work.

 
Pinguin
 
[/QUOTE]



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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 21:55
Originally posted by malizai_

Leonidas

Y did u even bother.

im just having some funSmile
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:28
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Since when was India close to Egypt but Asshur (in Iraq) far away?


Could be that in those days it was faster to travel by boat to India from Egypt, than to travel by caravan from Egypt to Iraq.

That is, if Asshur refers to Iraq.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:25
Since when was India close to Egypt but Asshur (in Iraq) far away?
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:12
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Their seems to be one small difference. Tibet is not shown as a part of the ancient India. Tibet is the most important place in Indian religion / mythology / culture. It is the home of Indian gods. Earlier in this century, before being usurped by China, tibet wanted to become a part of India rather than China, but our stupid prime minister Nehru wanted to forward his own stupid principles. So it was lost to chinese.


I didn't know that about Tibet.

What's your opinion on the below extract where Havilah is supposed to be India? Do you agree with this?

"The Bible also states that Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants lived in India.

Genesis 25:17-18 ...Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin...They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur."





    
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 14:40
Originally posted by gcle2003

(Vivek Sharma) Krishn's era was 3150 BC. He was a historical figure.(end)
 
So you can quote me the historical texts that confirm this? If the culture was literate in 3150 BC, then how was it written down? You have what? Contemporary inscriptions? Tablets? Steles?
 
[/QUOTE]
 
Good point!
 
All religions usually like to set dates well into the past. That does not mean the books were written at those dates, though.
 
In the case of India, I perceive a tendency by some to exagerate the antiquity of the writings. As far as I know, classical Indian religious literature was put on writing since the late first milenium B.C., and perhaps later.
 
Now, India traditions, stories and believes could be a lot older than the literature, transmitter orally, but then there is not hope dates are precise.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Nov-2006 at 14:42
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 14:05

Leonidas

Y did u even bother.

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  Quote Aktufe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 13:19
hey at least they didn't claim china, so it's a pretty decent map.LOL
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 07:53
Originally posted by Worldhistory

 
 
Came across this site and would like to have your opinion(and anyone else's) on it.
 
The information on it seems to be properly referenced.
 
 
seems?  check your references first.

this is all speculation, creative speculation, passed off as fact.  i'll just look at a very small portion of this supposedly 'properly  referenced' site

Elohim; Elokhim (God intellectualized)    Lakhimi(Goddess of Prosperity); Lokhi; Lukh(Shiva)
wrong. elohim is god with a pluralised and masculine ending


El Shaddai (God of the Mountain)  
God almighty

Ha-Kadosh (The Holy One)
translation is correct. its 'hakkadosh', how its connected to "Hakh-e-Kheda (Gods Duty)" is  beyond me. Maybe the maori 'hakka' is gods dance

Yesoda (Dual Sexual Nature of Life) 
um  jehova? find me a jewish text with that name please.......

Yahve; Jahve; Tseeva (God)
its YHWH, ok.just 4 letters so it shouldnt be hard to spell it correctly. No vowels

no one can say for certain what and how to pronounce the vowels, its too sacred to be writen and spoken of which i suspect is not the case for hindus and their gods.

1530, Tyndale's erroneous transliteration of Heb. Tetragramaton YHWH, using vowel points of Adhonai "my lord" (see Yahweh). Used for YHWH (the full name being too sacred for utterance) in four places in the Old Testament in the K.J.V. where the usual translation lord would have been inconvenient; taken as the principal and personal name of God. The vowel substitution was originally made by the Masoretes as a direction to substitute Adhonai for "the ineffable name." European students of Heb. took this literally, which yielded L. JeHoVa (first attested in writings of Galatinus, 1516)
etymonline.com


Aramaic, a language as similar to Hebrew as Spanish is to Portuguese, originated in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Both Afghanistan and Pakistan were once part of India.  Afghanistan seceded from Indian in the 1700s.  Pakistan was cut out of India when the two nations were partitioned after World War II.  Aramaic also is the source of modern Hebrews square alphabet, used in Israel today.
LOL

The source of the 'square' alphabet lies in babylon during their captivity, and aramiac is a semetic language from the syrian part of the M/E.


 looks like the Great Indian Nationalist Wet Dream



Edited by Leonidas - 16-Nov-2006 at 08:56
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 02:04
Their seems to be one small difference. Tibet is not shown as a part of the ancient India. Tibet is the most important place in Indian religion / mythology / culture. It is the home of Indian gods.

Earlier in this century, before being usurped by China, tibet wanted to become a part of India rather than China, but our stupid prime minister Nehru wanted to forward his own stupid principles. So it was lost to chinese.
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 23:40

World,

Awesome old news. Tx!
Be good or be gone.
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 21:34
 
 
Came across this site and would like to have your opinion(and anyone else's) on it.
 
The information on it seems to be properly referenced.
 
 


Edited by Worldhistory - 15-Nov-2006 at 22:14
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  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 21:30
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

It is true, but the west likes to belive otherwise, it would indicate an eastern origin to Christianity, which the Europeans would not have liked to belive.
 
This is true.
 
There's no doubt much of what is today labelled as Christianity, Judaism and even Islam originated from the regions and religions of ancient India.
 
However, in my view, there are a few aspects of modern Christianity which have a Western European origin whereby this smaller portion is usually called pagan.
 
I say about 5% of the bible books, mainly Revelation, contains genuine Christian European religious literature.
 
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 20:37
thank god some one can uncover such ridiculuos conclusions as proposed by such a source. (thanks Janus)

no one ever answered my questioning of the (so far) weak arguement that vedism = hinduism.Geek




Edited by Leonidas - 15-Nov-2006 at 20:39
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 00:49

(Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)


um........

The work of Godfrey Higgins, Anacalypsis, is quite nearly as hard to find as two-headed chickens, and it is nearly as normal as one.

I had little hope of actually getting a copy of it by special library loan, but lo and behold, it came. And once I saw it, I knew I wouldn't be able to do much with it -- this monstrosity is composed of two volumes larger than a New York City phone book, with type as dense as the entries. It cites few sources for its claims, but those it does cite are the sort of things you won't find down the street either -- anyone wishing to back-check all of Higgins' comments will be in for a real lifetime chore, even if they live in the UK. There is no telling whether the bulk of Higgins' sources are credible or not (though we do have some hints). And to make matters worse, I could only secure it by loan for two weeks.

So what to do? Thankfully, all that needs to be done is exactly what I had time for. I went through as much of Anacalypsis as I could, writing down the most clearly ridiculous and easily refutable propositions. Not that there were not other oddities that could be so refuted; but it runs down to that Anacalypsis is full of assertions that are either undocumented or come from sources whose credibility is completely unknown in this time, so our goal will merely be to show what sort of nonsense Higgins promoted throughout his work, so that those who use him as an authority (like Acharya S and Tom Harpur) will be compelled (if they are interested in the truth, which they are not) into defending his worth and explain why we ought to find Higgins a credible authority on the grounds that they do use him for. It is also, furthermore, that Higgins is so outdated that any arguments he makes based on dating, language, and so on, require at this time a full re-argument before they can be accepted. And now, we proceed to our "spot check" of Higgins.

  • Of particular embarrassment to anyone who uses Higgins is his endorsement of the idea that the world was once ruled by an ancient, advanced civilization. "Druidical and Cyclopaean buildings scattered over the world, in almost all nations, which I soon became convinced were the works of a great nation...." [viii] All of Asia was once ruled by black people who were Buddhists [255] and these Buddhists were colonizers of Egypt and "worshipers of the Sun in Taurus". [267]
  • Higgins' ideas about linguistics would also bring howls of laughter from those competent in that field. He says: Hebrew is the oldest language [x]; Latin is the same language as Sanskrit [2] (though Higgins also says, "I am ignorant of the Sanskrit language" [12!].
  • Did you know that trees give us a clue about languages and their origins? "...[C]areful comparison of the names of different letters in Irish, Hebrew, Samaritan, and Greek alphabets make it 'appear almost certain that they have all been called after the trees which now grow in the latitude of England, or else that the trees have been named after them." For example, A = ailm in Irish, or elm. Also M = mu, mem, or vine. But where's the M in vine, then? It was, um, "dropped for some unknown cause." [13] But the Asiatics nevertheless "called their sixteen letters after the Irish names of trees." [14]
  • Higgins does anthropology, and tells you that sunburn makes you dumb: "...the angle at which the plane of the eclipse makes with the plane of the equator was much larger than it is at this moment: the effect of which would be to increase the heat in the polar regions, and render them comfortable places for their inhabitants." Thus "the northern climes were probably the birth-place of man." [210] "Now I suppose that man was originally a Negro, and that he improved as years advanced and he travelled westwards, gradually changing from the jet black of India, through all the intermediate shades of Syria, Italy and France, to the fair white and red of the maid of Holland and Britain. On the burning sands and under the scorching sun of Africa, he would probably stand still, if he did not retrograde. But the latter is most likely to have happened; and accordingly, we find him an unimproved Negro, mean in understanding, black in colour." [284] One "Dr. Pritchard" has "successfully proved" that "blackness of skin is not cause by heat alone" but "is to be ascribed more to civilisation". (The irony here is that Higgins is used as a source by Massey and Kuhn, and they in turn are often used by African-American "revisionsist" writers like Yosef ben-Yochanon who seem to be unaware of Higgins' racist sentiments.)
  • Also, the Jews were actually "a tribe of Hindoo or Persian nomades or shepherds." [367] Abraham is Brahma and Sara is Saraiswati.
  • Remember that "medal" alleged to have been found in the pre-Christian ruins of Citium? We have more on that [219]. It was drawn by a "Dr. Clarke" who "shews [it] is Phoenician, and therefore of great antiquity" (how, is not explained). We'd still like to know where this medal is now. The "Dr. Clarke" is actually Daniel Clarke, who was a mineralologist and thus no one who may be trusted to assess ancient artifacts.
  • The common use of chants, music, and pilgrimages are taken as evidence that Tibetian Buddism is the same religion as Christianity [233]. Also, "Every part of Christianity refers back to Abraham, and it is all Freemasonry." [790] So Tibetian Buddhism is also Freemasonry.
  • "Buddha was Bacchus, Christna was Hercules, in reality, one 2160 years after the other." [254]
  • When the evidence doesn't back Higgins, it's not because he is wrong but because someone is hiding something: "I cannot believe that the Brahmins did not know the meaning of the word Agnus; their wish for secrecy can be the only reason that I can imagine for the signification of it not being found in their dictionaries." [263]
  • "Mr. Faber" says that Jesus was not originally called Jesus Christ, but "Jescua Hanamasiah." "Ham" is the same as "Om" in India. [315]
  • Higgins on church architecture: "...[O]ur churches were built in the inconvenient oblong form, instead of square or round, in imitation of mystic ships called Argha from mysteries of Egypt." This is why they have a section called a "nave". [344-5]
  • That Rome, Constantinople, and Troy were all built on seven hills "tends to shew that one secret system was at the bottom of them all." [360]
  • The Twelve Caesars of Rome recorded by Suetonious are the 12 signs of the Zodiac. Their title is after the Celtic god of war, Aesar. [369] No, there were not actually 12 such leaders in history, because "judicial astrology has corrupted almost every history which we possess."
  • Matt. 16:17-19 needs a new exegesis. Peter son of Jonas? The latter is the same as Janus (the Roman god) and Ioni, "the generative principle". "Stone" or Peter is an "emblem if the make generative principle" and is the same as a sacred stone found "in India at every temple" and obelisks in Egypt, and the "single stone found near every Gilgal or Druidical circle" as well as the stone found at Westminster Abbey. [644-5]
  • If you think Higgins might make sense somewhere, let me provide the following as typical babble-speak of his, all of it provided without a shred of corroborative documentation:
    As Jesus was IXOYE with the mystic monogram, I, prefixed, I-IXOYE, and the deity of Egypt was Omtha with the mystic monogram M, prefixed, M-OMtha, so may Ixion, divine one crucified, have been X-ion with the mystic X prefixed, and again, Caesar X-aesar and the Iokn may have been the Ione of Spiritus Mundi, the Dovem the crucified Semiramis, who flew away in the form of a Dove." [658]

    Say WHAT?

  • Higgins uses the Kabbalah, medieval Jewish occult material, to interpret the pre-Christian Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach as occult documents. [712]
  • Freemasonry originated in ancient Hindustan [725].
  • Jesus was black and went to Italy, which is why we see black infant Christs in Italy. [751]
  • Trying to prove mystic significance to the number 72 is a chore for Higgins. "The rabbis maintain that the angels who ascended and descended Jacob's ladder were seventy-two in number." "The Kabalists found seventy-two names of God" in Exodus 14:13-21. "In Numbers xxili.9, Exod. xv.27, we read of seventy palm trees. Of course the number ought to be seventy-two." The Greek king Solon made monetrary adjustments so that the value of a mina was changed from 72 drachma to a hundred. [780-2]
  • Higgins has something for all you Muslims out there, too. "Mohammed was called a Saca of Saceswara, as well as a Vicramaditya. These are all descriptive epithets. And from the fact named above we find the reason why the Mohamedens spared the statues of Buddha in India: It strongly confirms the doctrine of the secret religions of the Mohamedens. Mohammed was thought to be a renewed incarnation of divine wisdom, and of course of Buddha, in his tenth avatar." [v2, 2]
  • The book of Esther is part of the annals of the kings of Persia [17].
  • Mormons may like this one: The gods of India and Mexico are the same [23]. "Mexico" is Mesi-co, and since Hebrew msih = Messiah, "Mexico" is the "country of the Messiah."
  • As noted, we don't know much about Higgins' sources, but one he does use we know about: The unreliable Robert Taylor, who may have been the first to use the bogus Pope Leo X quote, and who confused a hymn to Jesus with one for Prometheus.
  • John the Baptist was a Mithraist, as were the Essenes. The place he baptized, Aenon, is "sacred to the sun." [66] His reference to being baptized by fire is to be connected to a rite in Scotland in which baptized children are swung over a fire three times. [67]
  • The Jews had a "secret doctrine" of crucified avatars. [115]

    And need we say more? Higgins' editor admits that Higgins was criticized by scholars who "felt that amateurs had no place in their special fields" [459], so even in his day he was obviously considered off the wall. How much more so today in light of what we know now? Anyone using Higgins as a source had best explain themselves as well as Higgins.


  • SOURCE: http://www.tektonics.org/gk/higginsg01.html





    Edited by JanusRook - 15-Nov-2006 at 00:50
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      Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 23:38
    It is true, but the west likes to belive otherwise, it would indicate an eastern origin to Christianity, which the Europeans would not have liked to belive.
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      Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 19:42

    I dont know if anyone else realizes the significance of Aelians text but it places Hinduism in Babylon in the time of Alexander the Great (330 BC).

     

    That is, if the text has been correctly translated from Aelians Greek to modern English.

     

    Also, since this event recorded by Aelian is said to have occurred while Alexander was still alive, it therefore predates the quote from Megasthenes:

            "Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

    because Seleucus Nicator was the Macedonian army general who founded the Seleucid kingdom after the death of Alexander the Great.

     

    Hence, both Aelians quote and Megastheness quote verify each other.

     
    What has also interested me is the part where Kalanos the Hindu sophist is said to have stood crowned with a wreath of reed.
     
     
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      Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 00:30
    The similarities in all these regions are too hard to miss, it's another thing that nationalistic fervour prevents most persons from admiotting their links with India.
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      Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 23:50
    Originally posted by Boreasi

    In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)

    Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"

    "Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

     
    Just like to add an Aelian quote I found:
     

    It is worthy to praise the end of Kalanos the Hindu; one might say even to marvel at it. It happened as follows. Kalanos the Hindu sophist, having bid Alexander, the Makedonians and life a long fair well, wanted to release himself from the chains of the body. A pyre arose in a very beautiful suburb of Babylon. The wood of cedar, thyia, cypress, myrrh and laurel was dry, good for smelling and well chosen. Having stripped in the gymnasium manner, there was even a walkway; he mounted to the middle of the pyre and stood crowned with a wreath of reed. When the rising sun struck him and he bowed down to it, this was the signal to the Makedonians to light the pyre. And it was done. But he stood engulfed by flame unmoved and did not roll over before it went out. They say that Alexander was astonished and said that Kalanos had defeated greater adversaries than he had. He had striven against Poros, Taxiles and Dareios, but Kalanos had against pain and death.                          Aelian, Varia Historia, 5.6

     
     
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