Who are the Armenians?

Do they have Caucasian or Mesopotamian culture or both? Is current Armenia historically important place for Armenian culture and does it resemble their past? Would an Armenian from south-east Turkey and one from Armenia feel like strangers to each other? And do they have any connection with Arameans?

I only remember this "vaguely", but i had been watching a greek history show a few years back and there was mention of some King named Armenios (who from what I could recall had origins in Crete ??) and had migrated to Armenia and that his people were called Armenians. 
All in all, that the Armenians might have some Greek roots/origins. ??

These Cretan origins could be credible, because there are 2 towns called Armenous in Crete lol.. co-incidence ???

Anyway, I was quite surprised to find the following (in bold) somewhat
support my memory of this.

Maybe some Armenian forumers can confirm and validate which theory is more realistic below??


The Birth of The Armenian Nation
Brief Survey and Chronological Information
 
It is very difficult, almost impossible to give accurate and generally accepted comprehensive history of the formation of the Armenian People and of the Armenian Nation. Fortunately since 1920's, Armenia has had highly scientific and internationally acknowledged historians, who have been trying to re-establish the truth about the Armenian Origins.
 
All evidence of historical information came from Greek Historians.  One of those famous scholars names Xenophone, gave the first information about Armenia and of Armenian People then others followed: Herotodus, Belos and Houtinos.
 
In his famous historical and documented book: The March of Country in approximately. 400-401 B.C. Xenophone speaks in detail about the Armenian Villages, giving emphasis on shape and style of their houses, which he says were under ground. He even mentioned the drinking of the first Armenian home made beer. From the beginning of civilization the Armenian lands have been the stage of various wars and battles.
Eastern powers wanted always to occupy these lands and open the way to western capitalism. The opposite Western Empires: Tome & Byzantine did every thing to capture Armenia to reach he Persian Empire. These conflicts marked the unrest for the Armenian people and Armenia as a Nation.
 
The Armenians did not have an alphabet or even an Armenian language during the Prehistorical Age, there after AD, until the 5th century. At this time all traces of pagan monuments or non-Christian heritage had been destroyed by Krikor Loussavorich and King Dertad. Therefore there was no historical evidence recorded of an Armenian Past. It was only after the year 1850 that scholars in Paris and Germany started to study the origins and the immigration of the Indo-European people, and thus the contex the Armenians.
 
The following paragraphs will give us three theories of Armenian Origin.
 
The first theory was from Herotodos, the Greek historian who lived and wrote his history in 300-270 B.C. and speaks about Armens during the war between Persia & Greece. He has been in the army and personally collected all the information and dates of history. According to him, Phrygians were form of Indo-European tribes. They came from Balkan Peninsula to Macedonia and Thracia. This immigration is dated 1200-1300 B.C. They stayed in this geographical area, but by the time they moved towards Capadocia (1) and Araradian Ashkhar (2), the Armens became one of the Phrygian Tribe. Hovhanness Catholicos who was an eminent Armenian Historian agrees to this itinerary, but both historians do not give any source of their information.
 
Another Greek Historian Blenus gives some more information and details. For him these Phrygians have been immigrated from central Asia, from the Russian plateau to the Danubian shores, then to the Balkans, Greece, then to Armenia. He gives another name to this Phrygian tribe, he calls them Askanas. Other scholars accept this especially because the Bible states that the Askanas were Phrygians and Armenians.
 
Armens came to Armenia when the Hittitian Kingdom was destroyed; at the time Greeks were establishing cities in Asia Minor. At the same time period a barbarian tribe called Scythians came from the north and destroyed the Urartu Kingdom. Urartu was the famous Kingdom and Civilization in the Araradian Territories. Urartu's leaders were wise and had powerful Kings who ruled from 885-535 B.C. and created a very rich heritage. Scythians attacked the Armens in 617-609 B.C., but the Armens gained their friendship and survived. They got the privilege over other tribes, even forced their nationa and moral characteristics over the local people, including Urartus and Nayiries.
 
These two local tribes or states had their own fame and culture. We are talking about Nayiry whose frontiers were from Alice River to Urmia Lake (Persia), from Lake Van to Aserbeydjian. Even until recent times Lake Van was called Nayirian Lake, and Urartus was one of the states of Nayirian Plateau-Empire. Urartu has also been a very rich, highly cultured country. Its civilization is proud evidence of the unforgettable heritage. In 1970, Armenia celebrated the 2750-th Anniversary of the foundation of Urartu's Capital City Yerepouny, whose name is now Yerevan the Capital city of Armenia. It's ruines, its palaces and great architectural-sculptural masterpieces still witness the glory of our past heritage. In Urartu there was also a well-known tribe by the name of Hayassa with an organized state. It is very possible that we started to call ourselves Hay, after this local tribe Hayassa.
 
The sixth century was politically very much troubled, with the advancing Greek forces and Persia growing to an emerging power. At 559 Perian Acchamenian Dynasty took over the crown. They attacked Urartus and divided Armenia into two states, High Armenia or Great Armenia, and Minor Armenia. But this domination did not stop Armens to assimilate local tribes among themselves. They forced their language, cultural and religious heritage. The Georgians were the only tribe who did not tolerate this domination and moved away.
 
The second theory is from the famous Greek geographer Stropoh, who wrote his history in the 2nd Century B.C. He speaks about a history book, written by two generals from Alexander the Great's Army, Girlos of Pharsala and Medios of Lareso. They gave the name of a certain country called Thessalia, were there was a city called Armenia, and the King's name was Armenos. Armenos with another King Jasos came to Armenia and won a very big war. They conquered the country and by his name the people became Armens. But this view is rejected, because Alexander the Great has never been in Armenia. His generals could not have known this to give eyewitness information; besides it is not clear if Stropon had seen nor read the book.
 
The third theory is legendary and belongs to the great Armenian poet and historian Movses Khorenatzi. According to Khorenatzi there was a famous Assyrian scientist Mar Appar Gadina, who was assigned by the Armenian King Vagharshak to go to Persia and to find out Armenian History. Gadina went to Persia, where in the Kings library he discovered the " History of the First Ancestors". That study, according to Khorenatzi was in Greek and Mar Appas Gadina translated into Assyrian. But we do not have neither Greek nor Assyrian versions of that book. In this "Book" Khorenatzi sees and develops Haig's legend and states that our country is called Hayastan and because of Haig, Armenians are called Hays. The Bible says Haig was the grandson of Japhet, son of Noah (3).
 
After giving all these points of view, it is possible to conclude by saying that Armens came from Europe with Phrygians and settled in Armenia by 800 B.C. We call ourselves Hye or Hay, because the Hayassa tribe were more advanced by culture and were the oldest tribe in that area, from the14th century. According to Atontz the Greeks first called us Armens, found our name in the history of Greek Historian Hegedios in 7th century B.C. Armen or Armenia is mentioned for the first time in history by the Persian King of Kings Darius in the 6th century B.C., when on the occasion of his glorious victory he erected a very huge monument Bissoutun. On that monument are the names of the people he attacked and the details of his battles.
 
After the decline of the Seleucid Empire, New Semi-Independent States had been founded in 250 B.C., Capadocia, Pontus, Atrepatokan and Armenia. For the first time in history Armenia is being mentioned.
It is certain now that Phrygians were the Armens and we are an Indo-European people from the Aryan family.
We have more than 4,000 years past.
http://www.armenian.com/history1.html

They gave the name of a certain country called thessalia, were there
was a city called armenia, and the king's name was armenos. De facto independent armenian principalities existed also in the regions of sasun and zeytun in western armenia. The energetic men's dance jo jon
(a. As a result armenia during the artashesian period became one of
the most hellenized and culturally advanced countries of asia minor.
http://www.stvartanbookstore.com/Armenian-Songst.html

Edited by warhead73 - 26-Sep-2006 at 18:05

Originally posted by Ashod So I am a little lost, I have heard that the Armenian languages touches upon the Hindu langauge, also from Persian, and ancient Greek

The alphabet was, not the language (not to that degree, but influenced by)

by the way, welcome to AE

I believe the script has never changed, only the pronunciation has changed.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/armenian.html

Originally posted by Kermioglu Well I agrre but except Uratu though, u know Urarty has been proved not to be Armenian by two English Archeologists i believe in early 20s.

     Yes Urartians are different from Armenians even though the groups bear many similarities due to geographical location. I have read though that under the Urartian regime in the late Urartian period most of its inhabitants were Armenians and not Urartians (maybe why they disappeared so fast when their kingdom collapsed). It is important to note, that Urartu is just the Assyrian form of the word Ararat.

Originally posted by Kerimoglu Generally I do not consider most of Post Christ States to be roots of modern ones. Like Nobody today can say as a fact who was Sumer, u know. The same with Urartu and Akkad, or Hittites or even Ancient egypt. i believe veither Armenian or A Turk living in middle east must have a right to be proud with all those anciet unique cultures becouse to-day we all have something from them. Please understand me right.

     I get what you're saying and it makes sense. Yes, they shared many aspects of their cultures and they all borrowed from each other, making Armenian and Turkish culture similar today. Turkish music has significant Armenian influences as well as other influences, and so does Turkish architecture and Turkish theater (whether most Turks acknowledge this or not, it is undeniable). On the other hand, Armenians have adopted Turkish coffee, Turkish foods and many Armenians are fluent speakers of Turkish (whether Armenians will admit to it or not, these facts are also undeniable).

Originally posted by Ellin The Armenians did not have an alphabet or even an Armenian language during the Prehistorical Age, there after AD, until the 5th century.

     Armenians had their own language long before Christ. The significance of the 5th century is that they finally were able to create their own unique alphabet.

Originally posted by Ellin According to him, Phrygians were form of Indo-European tribes. They came from Balkan Peninsula to Macedonia and Thracia.

     Aren't Macedonia and Thracia already on the Balkan Penninsula? They moved from the Balkan penninsula to the Balkan penninsula?

Originally posted by Ellin The third theory is legendary and belongs to the great Armenian poet and historian Movses Khorenatzi. According to Khorenatzi there was a famous Assyrian scientist Mar Appar Gadina, who was assigned by the Armenian King Vagharshak to go to Persia and to find out Armenian History. Gadina went to Persia, where in the Kings library he discovered the " History of the First Ancestors". That study, according to Khorenatzi was in Greek and Mar Appas Gadina translated into Assyrian. But we do not have neither Greek nor Assyrian versions of that book. In this "Book" Khorenatzi sees and develops Haig's legend and states that our country is called Hayastan and because of Haig, Armenians are called Hays. The Bible says Haig was the grandson of Japhet, son of Noah (3).

     The story of Haik is good story-telling and not sober history. However, I think there is some truth in the legend. I believe Haik was a significant figure on the Armenian Plateau long before Khorenatsi's time (even before Urartu existed). Possibly a Nairi or Hayasa tribal cheiftain or a general. Something along those lines.

Originally posted by Ellin After the decline of the Seleucid Empire, New Semi-Independent States had been founded in 250 B.C., Capadocia, Pontus, Atrepatokan and Armenia. For the first time in history Armenia is being mentioned.

     In the paragraph just before, it says Armenia was mentioned in the 6th century B.C. by Darius's Behistun inscription. In actuality, Armenians had an independent state under the Yervanduni dynasty as early as 585 B.C., after Urartu had collapsed. Older Hittite scripts also mention a country called Hayasa to their east.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis Do they have Caucasian or Mesopotamian culture or both?

     I think Sharrukin can answer with more detail and clarity. But there are certainly Aryan influences (prehistoric times), later replaced by Iranian influence mainly due to Cyrus's conquests (Armenians were allied with Cyrus in his revolt against the Medians). There was Greek influence after Alexander's conquests, evident in the fact that from about 300 B.C. to the 1st century A.D. Armenians built their temples in the Greek style, and used the Greek alphabet. Greek and Iranian influences continued as Armenia was stuck between Byzantium and Persia. With the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia in the Medieval period, Armenia was also host to some western European influence (during this period they added 2 letters to the Armenian alphabet in order to pronounce European names and words better, and the language of merchants in Armenian Cilicia was Italian). And of course with 500 years of Ottoman rule there were Turkish influences. Also, many people do not realize that Armenians and Kurds have many similarities, as they have lived next to each other for millenia.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis Is current Armenia historically important place for Armenian culture and does it resemble their past?

     Yes and no. Yes because Armenians have thousands of years of history on the lands of the current republic (the capital Yerevan was built in 782 B.C., making it older than Rome). And no, because relatively speaking, the areas of modern Turkey which used to form parts of Armenian states had more significance for Armenians historically speaking. Namely the Ararat valley encompassing Lake Van all the way west to the Euphrates river, including the lands in and around Kars and Erzerum. These are the oldest (and most beautiful) parts of the Armenian Plateau.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis Would an Armenian from south-east Turkey and one from Armenia feel like strangers to each other?

     There are not any Armenian communities there anymore. But generally speaking, Armenians from anywhere in the world regard each other as part of the same culture. The differences between Armenians from different countries are mostly concerned with the psyche and traditions of the nations they live in, but the differences are not that great compared to the similarities (assuming they are both somewhat integrated into the Armenian culture from family or friends).

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis By the way wasnt capital city of Urartus Tuspa ( currently in Van, Turkey ) rather than Yerevan?

     Sarduri I made Tushpa the capital in the 9th century B.C. while Yerevan (known then as Erebuni) was built in 782 B.C. by Argishti I as a fortress to protect Urartu from invasions from the Caucasus. One of the walls of Argishti's palace is still standing (the paint still has not faded away completely) along with the foundation of the building. The view from his hilltop palace is great.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis And do they have any connection with Arameans?

     Aside from some cultural contacts, not much. Arameans are from Syria and they have a different language and culture. I have heard that Old Armenian and Aramean languages are similar, but I have yet to see any real evidence which would prove it to me.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis You said Armenians and Kurds have many similarities but actually i fail to see any similarities, maybe if you pointed them out i could understand better. The two ethnics are different in both fenotype and culture in my opinion.

     For one they look similar to Armenians (looks are not concrete proof of anything, but it shows that they have lived together for some time). There are many Kurds in eastern Turkey who are in fact Kurdicized Armenians (they know their grandparents are Armenians but they have no access to the Armenian culture so they are basically Kurds). In Armenia, Kurdish communities are so integrated that Armenians and Kurds are godfathers to each others children in many communities. Also since Kurds are Iranian, and Armenians have Iranian influences in their culture, it is only natural that some things will be common, along with the fact that Kurds and Armenians have lived right next to and with each other for thousands of years. For example, the name Ara, which is an ancient Armenian name, is also a common name among Kurds (I recently found this out from a Kurdish forumer here).

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis By the way why did Armenians move to Cilicia and establish a kingdom there?

     The 11th century Turkic invasions devastated the Armenians in Caucasia and east Anatolia. There were mass migrations due to the horrible circumstances, and slowly the Armenian minority in Cilicia started becoming the majority. However, it is only when the Armenian nobles, who had lost most of their holdings in Anatolian and Caucasian Armenia, started coming to Cilicia that the Armenians had a chance to create a sovereign kingdom. The two main noble families who were trying to create an Armenian state in Cilicia were the Rubenids and Hetumids. The Hetumids wanted to create an Armenian kingdom which would be a loyal vassal to Byzantium, while the Rubenids wanted an independent kingdom which would keep Byzantine influence out. The Byzantines captured the Armenian capital of Ani in 1045 during the Turkic invasions, and this power struggle in Cilicia took place from about 1070-1080. When the Rubenids  finally defeated the Hetumids and their Greek allies, they established an independent Armenia in Cilicia from 1080-1375.

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis And what about Azeris, are they closer to Armenians or Iranians?

     Slightly complicated because there is a difference between Azeris in Azerbaijan and the ones in Iran (most Azeris live in Iran, and the vast majority of them consider themselves Iranian). But on the whole, I would say they are closer to Iranians simply because most of them live in the same country together, and both groups are Shia Muslims (I think Azerbaijan and Iran are the only two countries whose official religion is Shia Islam).

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 10-Oct-2006 at 05:47