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  Quote Nader75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arab and spanish
    Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 01:25
what did arab with the spanish people when entered to the spanish, as I heard they put the bells of churches around the necks of priests and made them to walk in the street, is this true ?
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 01:40
While some (minority) Muslim states restricted non-Muslim activities under their domain,  Muslim spain allowed even for Christians to build new churches. Also, the common behavior of the Muslim army is to well treat the new subjects to comfort their fears, win their support, and decrease chances of uprising when the country is freshly conqeusted.
Both of those points leaves the story of hanging the bells of churches around the necks of priests (I recall them huge bells, no nick can support them) only a myth as far as I know.
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 06:10

  For 800 years, Arabs lived in Spain, Al-Andalus. The brilliant civilization they created flourished while the rest of Europe groveled in the Dark Ages.

The first period of Muslim rule ( under the Umayyad rulers) lasted for the first 300 years. Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. The Arabs did not require Spanish Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, but to pay taxes and live in peace.
so f you have a source(link) please provide it to make it an objective argument.
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 06:52
@ ok ge:
I slightly and respectfully disagree with you. When a new city was conquered you had a treaty signed to set up the new rules. More often then not this treaty banned the construction of new churches and the fixing of the old ones.

The fact is though that these dispositions were only enforced during the times of some fanatic leaders or to punish a civil unrest. Nonetheless, the Muslim pressure on the population became increasingly important leading to volontary matyr waves, immigration to Nothern Spain and massive guerillas in the Sierras.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 09:48
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

  For 800 years, Arabs lived in Spain, Al-Andalus. The brilliant civilization they created flourished while the rest of Europe groveled in the Dark Ages.

The first period of Muslim rule ( under the Umayyad rulers) lasted for the first 300 years. Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. The Arabs did not require Spanish Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, but to pay taxes and live in peace.
so f you have a source(link) please provide it to make it an objective argument.
 
 
 
Your opinions are rather biased in favour of muslims and against christians.
 
First of all Arabs (and Berbers) ruled for 800 years only the Andalusia region (the south-eastern part of Spain) and very less in other parts of Spain. Never all Spain was under muslim rule.
 
Second. The so called "dark ages" in Europe were only the two centuries 600-800. In 9th century with Charlemagne Europe had a first kind of renaissance (the "Carolingian Renaissance") and in the following centuries there was a constant growth of her economic, demographic and cultural power.
 
Third. Ther was a relative tolerance also in the christian kingdoms in Spain. The intolerance with the forced conversions to christianity was a phenomenon posterior to Reconquista. On the contrary there were episodes of intolerance and also open persecution under the muslim rule.
 
 
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 11:39
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

  For 800 years, Arabs lived in Spain, Al-Andalus. The brilliant civilization they created flourished while the rest of Europe groveled in the Dark Ages.

The first period of Muslim rule ( under the Umayyad rulers) lasted for the first 300 years. Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. The Arabs did not require Spanish Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, but to pay taxes and live in peace.
so f you have a source(link) please provide it to make it an objective argument.
 
 
 
Your opinions are rather biased in favour of muslims and against christians.
 
First of all Arabs (and Berbers) ruled for 800 years only the Andalusia region (the south-eastern part of Spain) and very less in other parts of Spain. Never all Spain was under muslim rule.
 
Second. The so called "dark ages" in Europe were only the two centuries 600-800. In 9th century with Charlemagne Europe had a first kind of renaissance (the "Carolingian Renaissance") and in the following centuries there was a constant growth of her economic, demographic and cultural power.
 
Third. Ther was a relative tolerance also in the christian kingdoms in Spain. The intolerance with the forced conversions to christianity was a phenomenon posterior to Reconquista. On the contrary there were episodes of intolerance and also open persecution under the muslim rule.
 
 
No I just wrote a fact and I am not An Umayyads fan or supporter.
First
I wrote Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control not ALL of it and as far as I know that is the truth cause only the far notrth of Iberia still independent(Asturia and few strongholds).
Second
The growth of the economic,Agriculture and cultural power power is due to Muslims and non-Muslims often came from abroad to study in the famous libraries and universities of al-Andalus. The most noted of these was Michael Scot, who took Ibn Rushd's (Averroes') works, and his commentaries on many of Aristotle's works as well as the works of Ibn Sina (Avicenna) to Italy. This event was to have a significant impact on the formation of the European Renaissance. 
agricultural infrastructure well in advance of that of any other part of western Europe. Cordoba under the Caliphate, with a population of perhaps 500,000, was far larger and more prosperous than any other city of the time in Europe, with the exception of Constantinople, and competed on at least equal terms as a cultural centre with anywhere else in the Islamic world. The work of its philosophers and scientists would be a significant formative influence on the intellectual life of medieval western Europe.
Third
We speak generally not about special cases,In general the Arabs were more tolerance than the Spanish.
al-Andalus became the center of Jewish intellectual endeavors. Poets and commentators like Judah Halevi and Dunash ben Labrat  contributed to the cultural life of al-Andalus.
I don't deny there were some persecution cases.
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 11:52
Originally posted by Maharbbal

@ ok ge:
I slightly and respectfully disagree with you. When a new city was conquered you had a treaty signed to set up the new rules. More often then not this treaty banned the construction of new churches and the fixing of the old ones.
 
Your view is highly respected. However, I have my reasons to stick with the knoweldge I know that Moorish Spain stood different to any other Islamic state during that time, for the following reasons:
 
1- Many churches and synagouges were constructed on the Moorish architecture. While some followed that style after the Reconquista, we cannot ignore those that were built in that style during the Moorish rule. To give you one example, the synagogue of "de Santa Maria la Blanca" in Toledo was constructed in 1180 AD, when the city fell to Alfonso VI in 1183 , it wasn't long that the synagouge was converted into a Church.
 
2- examples of churches the two churches of Toledo of San Sebastin and Santa Eulalia. Both were built during the Moorish rule and modified later.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 11:55
I forgot to mention that I'm not here to glorify Moorish Spain or to devalue its history. My earlier post was directed to counter argue Nader's story. How much tolerance Moorish Spain enjoyed does not answer his question specifically.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 14:09
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

  For 800 years, Arabs lived in Spain, Al-Andalus. The brilliant civilization they created flourished while the rest of Europe groveled in the Dark Ages.

The first period of Muslim rule ( under the Umayyad rulers) lasted for the first 300 years. Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control. Their rule was relatively peaceful and uncontested. The Arabs did not require Spanish Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, but to pay taxes and live in peace.
so f you have a source(link) please provide it to make it an objective argument.
 
 
 
Your opinions are rather biased in favour of muslims and against christians.
 
First of all Arabs (and Berbers) ruled for 800 years only the Andalusia region (the south-eastern part of Spain) and very less in other parts of Spain. Never all Spain was under muslim rule.
 
Second. The so called "dark ages" in Europe were only the two centuries 600-800. In 9th century with Charlemagne Europe had a first kind of renaissance (the "Carolingian Renaissance") and in the following centuries there was a constant growth of her economic, demographic and cultural power.
 
Third. Ther was a relative tolerance also in the christian kingdoms in Spain. The intolerance with the forced conversions to christianity was a phenomenon posterior to Reconquista. On the contrary there were episodes of intolerance and also open persecution under the muslim rule.
 
 
No I just wrote a fact and I am not An Umayyads fan or supporter.
First
I wrote Nearly all of Spain and Portugal came under Arab control not ALL of it and as far as I know that is the truth cause only the far notrth of Iberia still independent(Asturia and few strongholds).
Second
The growth of the economic,Agriculture and cultural power power is due to Muslims and non-Muslims often came from abroad to study in the famous libraries and universities of al-Andalus. The most noted of these was Michael Scot, who took Ibn Rushd's (Averroes') works, and his commentaries on many of Aristotle's works as well as the works of Ibn Sina (Avicenna) to Italy. This event was to have a significant impact on the formation of the European Renaissance. 
agricultural infrastructure well in advance of that of any other part of western Europe. Cordoba under the Caliphate, with a population of perhaps 500,000, was far larger and more prosperous than any other city of the time in Europe, with the exception of Constantinople, and competed on at least equal terms as a cultural centre with anywhere else in the Islamic world. The work of its philosophers and scientists would be a significant formative influence on the intellectual life of medieval western Europe.
Third
We speak generally not about special cases,In general the Arabs were more tolerance than the Spanish.
al-Andalus became the center of Jewish intellectual endeavors. Poets and commentators like Judah Halevi and Dunash ben Labrat  contributed to the cultural life of al-Andalus.
I don't deny there were some persecution cases.
 
 
The role of muslim culture in the birth of Renaissance is highly disputable (in the past I and other forumers have already posted something about this subject ...).
 
Anyway you are right about the role of Michel Scot, Gerard of Cremona (even more famous than Scot as translator) and others as translators from Arabic to Latin, but there is a fact rarely noted by apologists of the so called "Moorish Spain".
Indeed all these European translators came in Spain after the Reconquista (of course, in that part of Spain already reconquered - Toledo, for example was reconquered in 1085 and Michel Scot came here more than a century later) and they worked under christian rulers. So the praise for promoting the tolerant milieu necessary for these cultural exchanges is due to christian Kings as, for example, Alfonso X the Wise of Castille.
Unfortunely after the completed Reconquista Spanish christian rulers were no more tolerant and all the Jews and Moors were expelled.
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 16:37
 But in Michel scot role we discussed about his impact in European Renaissance not in tolerance.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 02:49
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 But in Michel scot role we discussed about his impact in European Renaissance not in tolerance.
 
 
You can read this old thread:
 


Edited by Leonardo - 24-Sep-2006 at 02:51
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 22:11
The topic of tolerancy or intollerancy of Muslim Spain must be taken with caution. The fact is foreigners were a small minority in a sea of Iberians, and they treat local in a tolerant because they don't have more choice.
When Islam turned intolerant, around the 12th century, the Christians managed to defeat the Muslims and pushed them down south to Granada.
 
In a very real way, Islamic rule was very fragile in Spain during most of the time, and only diplomacy and foreign troops keep then in power longer than necesary.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 05:13
 First,the Moorish were not a small minority in Spain,and it is make nosense that they treated the local with tolerance cause they had no choice.
If you have the power then you have many chioces so please find an objective reason.
Islamic rule became fragile after the fall of Caliphate of Cordoba in 1031 A.D after 400 years from the invasion and the Moravids came in 1086 and defeated Alfonso at the Battle of az-Zallaqah .
so the foreign troops came after long time befor that the Morish built a strong state in Military,culturaly and economicaly and no need to mention the evidences about this clear subject.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 09:56
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 First,the Moorish were not a small minority in Spain,and it is make nosense that they treated the local with tolerance cause they had no choice.
 
It depends of what you call "Moor". Remember that the term Moor was applied by Christians to any Muslim. Now, the foreigners in Muslim Spain where clearly a minority of people that came from all over the Muslim world, and which didn't have a definite identity, except from religion. Besides, foreigners were a small minority between the Muslims, most fo which were converted Spaniards. And those Muslim Spaniards have lots of relation with fellow Christian Spaniards as well.
 
So, for the Moors it was more intelligent to resort to diplomacy rather to get into throubles with an heterogenous population lots of times larger than themselves.
 
If you have the power then you have many chioces so please find an objective reason.
Islamic rule became fragile after the fall of Caliphate of Cordoba in 1031 A.D after 400 years from the invasion and the Moravids came in 1086 and defeated Alfonso at the Battle of az-Zallaqah .
so the foreign troops came after long time befor that the Morish built a strong state in Military,culturaly and economicaly and no need to mention the evidences about this clear subject.
 
Yes, Almoravides defeated the Christians in a couple of battles but if you look the map of the reconquest, it is clearly that was precisely the times when the Muslims lost almost all Spain, except by Granada. From there afterwards it was just a matter of time to get rid of the Muslims and to invade North Africa.
 
Besides, the fact that Muslims of Al-Andalus have to ask for help to the Moors of North Africa is revealing. They already didn't have the power or the will of local Spanish Al-Andalusians to resist the Christians of the north.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 12:44

I would like to note two important points. First, Moorish Spain had a huge Christian population, however, it is believed that Muslims outnumbered Christians in Al Andalus by the 11th century.

So if Muslims were the majority in Al Andalus, why did they need foriegn help in facing the Christian Iberian states to the north?

There is the theory that Pinguin raises which is that "the power or the will of local spanish Al Andalusians to resist the Christians of the north" was not available to Moorish Spain by that time.  I personally would disagree for the reason I mentioned that Andalucian Spain had a majority of Muslims and mobilizing them is not interrupted by differences of religion. The real reason is simply that by the time of Almoravids, Ummayid Spain was divided between small states and provinces clashing with each others. Only by the time of Moorish Spain division and the end of the Ummayid total reign over Andalucia, is when the reconquista started to generate more land from the Moorish. Those states are not anymore ruled by just foriegn elite Arab rulers. They were Berber rules, Iberian convert rulers...etc

Asking Almoravids intervention was the only way to stop or slow the reconquista for all those various independant Iberian Muslim states that fought each others previously for domain and control. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 14:15
Yes, you are right,
 
However the intervention of the Almoravids was counterproductive.
 
If the relations between Muslims and Christian states in Spain was never completely peaceful (it was the Middle Ages after all), there was a relative acceptance between both groups. But when the Almoravides invaded Spain, that action shocked not only Christians but many Muslims as well that saw it as just as an invasion to theirs country. And there are records of Muslims allied to the Christians against the invasors. It also produced the Christians to wake up and to accelerate the reconquist.
 
The Almoravides' invasion was the beginning of the end of Muslim Spain. By the time Granada fell down in 1492, Al-Andalus was reduced at a very small kingdom that was doomed to collapse sooner or later.
 
Pinguin.
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 21:34
Pinguin, you do realize that Almoravids responded to a call by the Andalucians. So I doubt that the situation was just small clashes between Christian northern kingdoms and the various Islamic kingdoms of Andalucia. It was definitely a huge crusade launching on the Islamic Iberian states and that is why they accepted a foriegner rule. After all, dont forget that they were fighting each others on expanding control of each kingdom of those Tawaefs. It must have gone so bad that they decided that giving up their dream of expanding their kingdoms and allowing a foriegn North African ruler to dominate them is far better than their second option which you can guess it no doubt.
Regardless how sophosticated were the Almoravids (they actually didnt' have a previous experience of ruling large areas of large Christian population), I still think that the invasion has slowed down the reconquista of souther Spain.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 04:21
Pinquin is, generally speaking, on the ball. I would like to add that a large portion of Muslim Iberia was made up by Mozarabs, Islamised Christians. Their ability to speak both languages made them valuable and certain Mozarab families came to dominate civic administration posts, in the same manner the Logothetai or Pselloi dominated positions in Constantinople.
During the years of the taifa kingdoms there seems to have existed a general atmoshphere of toleration, regardless the endless raids and counter raids on the frontier zones--I should mention that raiding is attributed by some to economic reasons since the main source of wealth in those regions was cattle.
The arrival of the Almoravids introduces a new jihad factor which escalated on both sides of the border. The Almoravids persecuted the Andalusian Mozarab class that was being highly used and paid for by the taifa rulers and introduced a custom for headhunting which was quickly copied by the Christians.

cok gec,
what undoubtedly triggered the request for aid was the capture of Toledo by Castille in 1085; however I doubt how big this offensive was. The idea of a total reconquista is not formed by the Christian kingdoms untill mid-12th c. so this is not a big religious crusade by Castille. I think that the taifa kingdoms simply did not see the Christian upsurge. They had become too complacent in their belief of their own cultural superiority towards the unwashed  barbarians across the Tago. Towards the waning years of the Umayyads, their elite had become demilitarized and most of the army was made up of European slaves and berber immigrants. The berber element was expelled during the struggle that followed the collapse of the Ummayad Caliphate and Andalus broke up into the taifa kingdoms. These smaller states were unable to deal with increasing Christian assertiveness which became an offensive when it was realized that no grand resistance was being offered.
Also, after the civil  war between them in 1065 Castille and Leon are unified (again), This should have sent ripples across al-Andalus since now there was one unified Christian front. But I don't think anyone registered it.


Edited by konstantinius - 03-Oct-2006 at 04:55
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 10:26
Well, I believe this map explains more easily the big failure of the Almoravides. Most of the territories were back in Christian hands after theirs government. 1492 was the fall of Granada, but by then Al-Andalus was just a shadow of its former glory.
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 11:13
Originally posted by konstantinius

what undoubtedly triggered the request for aid was the capture of Toledo by Castille in 1085; however I doubt how big this offensive was. The idea of a total reconquista is not formed by the Christian kingdoms untill mid-12th c.
 
It is true that the idea of a massive reconquista did not form till the mid of 12th century. I also think that the Reconquista was initially a mere control expansion and not a purely religious motivated campaigns. However, it is known that the Catholic church gave indulgence to encourage the Christian kingdoms to initiate attacks on Moorish Spain. In fact, Pope Alexander II promised the participants of an expidition against the town of Barbastro an indulgence for all Christian participants. That was in 1064 and way before the first crusade. There was a tremendous pressure by three Christian kingdoms attacking Moorish spain. I copy to you the map in Wikipedia that shows Andalucia at the time of Almoravids arrival:
 
What I'm stating here that the pressure of the Reconquista (notice the various routes of the reconquista in 1085) and especially the fall of Toledo and the intrusions of Castille and Leon made it clear to all Taifas kingdoms that they are uncapable of haulting northern Christian offenses.
 
Now for Pinguin, he suggested that the Almoravid invasion was, and I quote him, "was the beginning of the end of Muslim Spain" and that their invasion caused " the Christians to wake up and to accelerate the reconquist". However, in reality Almoravids were only defeated once in Valencia. That is the reason why historians agree that Almoravid intervention haulted the Christian kingdoms expansion to sourthern Spain. Keep in mind that the Crusade started already and in fact the Pope discouraged Iberian knights from joining the Crusade as he made it clear that their Reconquista was equally as important as the Crusades in the East. In fact, Iberian Crusaders (joined by French crusades) were told to receive the same reward of the Eastern crusade from the Papacy. So it is not true that  Almoravids accelerated the Reconquista. The Crusade itself is what accelerated the Reconquista. The map of 1145 posted here by Pinguin is already reflecting two things. The start of the Crusade half a century ago and the decline of Almoravids especially by Almohades in the south fragmenting the Almoravids empire. Finally in 1147 was the end of Almoravids dynasty conquered by Almohades.


Edited by ok ge - 03-Oct-2006 at 11:15
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