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who are pomaks?

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pomak35 View Drop Down
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  Quote pomak35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: who are pomaks?
    Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 09:20

we make cross examination pomaks have got slavic specialities ! what a rubbish assertion! pomaks are not greek!!!  we interrogate slavs and islam



Edited by pomak35 - 26-Sep-2006 at 09:56
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perikles View Drop Down
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:07
You confused me.What do you mean that pomaks are greek and slavic mix?
You are pomak but you live in Tukey right?
What do you think about pomaks. If you are pomak form what village you come from?
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  Quote pomak35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 11:34

im sure that pomaks havent got greek specialities. i feel my self half bulgarian and half turkish. race=as like as slavic, religion=as like as turkish. My family are from ''PLOVDIV" im 4th generation in turkey and still i use pomak tongue as my second language at least between my family. I see many turkish words in pomak tongue on greek based websites about pomaks. For example counting numbers as like as turkish bu we never use turkish counting numbers and more like that in real pomak tongue. I have got a claim that pomaks who live in greece are generally mix with turks source of turkish word usage belongs to this mixture(pomak-turk) But pomaks in bulgaria are pure than greece.

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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 18:03
Yes,teach them a lesson.
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 15:08
It is quiet funny ,how some people understand nationality.
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  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 02:28
Culture is also something gained. Pomaks, a small group in Greece, living here for a long time, would have eventually gained the Greek culture and start identifying as Greek. Just think of the Bosnians who immigrated to Turkey and after a generation or two started identifying as Turkish -many groups in Turkey identify as Turkish after a few generations, if their religion is not a minority religion. As for their background, I don't think anyone was asserting that they have a Greek background.

From what I know, Pomaks are descended from the Thracian tribes, and are autoctonous to the region. They, no doubt mixed with the Bulgarians, and the majority of them live in Bulgaria today. No doubt they also mixed with Turks and Greeks. There is Pomaks or Pomak descendents living in Turkey today as well.

Especially with the new style of life, ie. greater communication between groups compared to a hundred years ago, it's hard for any group to completely keep their identity -what I mean is, these minority groups no longer live isolated in their villages and mix with the majority population much more.

The other issue is nationality. Don't mix nationality with ethnicity. A Greek citizen, is a Greek national, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim or Atheist; just as a Bulgarian citizen is a Bulgarian national regardless or religion.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 06:53
All ethnoses in Balkans are descendants of authochtonic population, not only pomaks.

Edited by Anton - 25-Sep-2006 at 06:54
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  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 07:26
Well, I thought the Slavs came to the Balkans around 6th century and the Bulgars around that time, too (though their raids started earlier)? The proto-Bulgars were from Central Asia and the Slavs from Eastern Europe (more NE than the Balkans) The earlier populations (as tribes go) seem to be Peonians, Illyrians, Thracians, etc. The Celts also had settled in the Balkans (especially around Dobrudja, also what is now Serbia and Croatia) but they disappeared as a seperate group, mixing with the other tribes.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 07:48

Yes, you are right more or less. except maybe that Bulgars came from Central Asia -- /this is challenged nowadays (the most far East Bulgarian settlement is known to be in Caucassus).

But present Slavic nations are not composed only by Slavs but by Thracians as well. These data were supported by genetical and cultural anthropology data. And Thracians did not disappear or assimilated by Greeks and Romans as some believe since they are  frequently mentioned by Byzantium authors (see for example Procopius, The Gotic war) as nations with their language. They even specify some of those nations -- like Bessi (Procopius, Theophanus). Jordanes knew bessic language in VI century and Antoninus Placentinus mentioned it 570 year, when Slavs were already settled. The fact that they didn't immigrate to Byzantium as some people claim but instead continued to live with slavs, especially after Bulgaria became Christian.This is mentioned in Ducla's Chronicle. And finally, if pomaks are descendatns of Thracians, why shouldn't other slavs be? The major difference between pomaks and Bulgarians is that pomaks are muslims. Language, customs, songs, dances, mythology etc. are very cimilar. And these customs, songs, dances, mythology and, maybe, partially language was inherited at least in part by pomaks as well as other slavic nations.


Edited by Anton - 25-Sep-2006 at 08:04
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  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 08:04
Of course I agree with you, all nations in the Balkans are a mixture of these groups, both the autochonous tribes and the Slavs, Bulgars and others who came later in great numbers (even Scythians and Sarmatians in some areas -but they are so remote now) I just mentioned the Thracian connection with the Pomaks because I remember reading about it that Pomaks consider themselves the descendants of the ancient Thracians. In reality, I don't think they are any different than Christian Bulgarians all that much. The only difference might have been that because they more or less lived as a closer society (both due to geography (mountainous area) and religion) they might have kept more to themselves. Though, I know that there are many intermarriages between Pomaks and Christians, both in Bulgaria and Greece and I remember hearing from some Bulgarian friends that Pomaks in Bulgaria are considered no less Bulgarian.

Thanks for the sources, by the way. :)
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 08:08

We can ask pomak35 about this. If he stops loughing at us and be so kind to share with us some information about his ethnos (nation, group -- whatever) it will be interesting for many people here. Wink

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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 08:44
Pomak35 is making propaganda. As you said he is laughing at us. I asked him his opinion and saying again for turks. Pomaks with turks are absolutely no relation. I mean Ottomans made a lot of nations mixed up. There is a connection but not the way he describes it.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 15:54
Who are you to tell a "Pomak" that he's not what he is. Accept people for what they are not what you want them to be. If he said Pomaks were Greeks you'd try and promote this because he said there closer to Turks you try to denounce him, its pathetic.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 18:27
I have seen some Pomaks here in Greece,and discussed with them. They do not have a ethnicity. Maybe we don't understand it well but this is true, They see themselves as toys of the three neighboring countries.Their ethnicity is the islam.They want to preserve their languaga(slavic) and they are complaining for the turkish efforts to make them turcophones. As for their physical appearance,they look too slavic and are easily distinguished by their greek and turk neighboors.
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 02:52
i am ot denouncing anyone. I said that Pomaks are no Turkish origin neither Greek origin. I don't know what they are but it is for sure that they are not Turks or Greeks. They live in Greece, they are educating with greek system, they speak greek(along with pomaks). So what is the reason you acccusing me?
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  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 06:56
I agree. That is, the Pomaks who live in Greece are legally "Greek" -not ethnically, as a nationality. Same thing for the Pomaks who live in Bulgaria and Turkey. As for how they identify ethnically or historically, I think that depends on the individual. Some would identify Pomak, some would identify within the host nation, some a more generic "Balkanian". Though, I do know that at least some Pomaks in Bulgaria identify as Muslim Bulgarians. Might very well be the case for those in Greece, though I do remember reading that (in a text for class, I'll try to dig up where exactly), with the support of the United States and in fact, the okay of Greece, the Pomaks were held subject to Turkifying propaganda during the Cold War, so that they wouldn't identify as "Communist" Bulgarians. Identifying as Turkish would be even easier as there would be no difference in religion, once the language barrier was overcome. 
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  Quote pomak35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 09:49
i dont make propoganda. i wonder to know my origin so we have got two data as a matter of fact i designate them. One of is slavic one of is islam. we dont make politic discussion.  i had laughed to "descedants of ancient Agrianes" greece official theory also for turkish and bulgarian official theories. i dont believe all because this subject havent got  basic definition as like as official therories or official definitions.
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 11:08
I can't understand why you have to be either Slaivc, Greek or Turkish. You are pomak. Greeks have no origin. They are Greeks. Turkish also. I am not follow. i mean both slavs and turks came to the area centuries after Pomaks were there. Maybe i am wrong. As i said i am not familiar with pomaks very well but i know that they were living in Thrace and todays southern Bulgaria before slavs and Turks. So... maybe i am wrong.
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 13:44
Actually pomaks are pomaks.Plain and simple.Smile
Their origin is obscure and there is no evidence in order to assert that they originate from this population or the other.
There are two theories which lack however solid evidence about their origins:
1.They are descendants of Bulgarian heretics,of the Bogomils, who converted to Islam after the turkish conquest of the Balkans
2.They are descendants of semi-slavicised,semi-christianised pechenegs and Cumans who had been settled in Rodope by the Byzantine authorities so as to guard the mountainous passages of Rodope.Later they adoptd the islamic faith when the ottomans came to the Balkans.
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:35
Originally posted by Patrinos

I have seen some Pomaks here in Greece,and discussed with them. They do not have a ethnicity. Maybe we don't understand it well but this is true, They see themselves as toys of the three neighboring countries.Their ethnicity is the islam.They want to preserve their languaga(slavic) and they are complaining for the turkish efforts to make them turcophones. As for their physical appearance,they look too slavic and are easily distinguished by their greek and turk neighboors.
 
I am sure you didnt think much before posting this. Firstly you say that they dont have an ethnicity (and this is strangeConfusedConfused). And then you try to explain what their ethnicity is...by restricting it to the religion. Ethnos is not only religion.
 
Regarding the physical appearence, are you sure that you can distinguish easily the greeks from their neighbours. Shall i test you, I have two pictures of a seminary in Athens. Participants were representatives from all the balkan countries, and they met the former-president Stefanopoulos in the palace Maximo. I was there too, and I know everyone of my friends and colleagues. So lets see if you can tell me who are the albanians, who the turks, who the serbians, who the macedonians, who the bulgarians, who the romanians and who are the greeks at the end. I believe it will be easy for you, there were three representatives from each country, while Greece as the organizer had 7 participants. Shall I post that picture and see if you can get it right. Myself I find it impossible to tell who is who from the physical appearence...at least in the balkans
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