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Where did Xia people go?

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Where did Xia people go?
    Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 19:45

Where did Xia people go after Xia dynasty was overthrew (Wang Ning)

The original Xia state was in today's Shandong province, this canbe verified by historical evidences, historians who believe in this theory, for instance Wang guowei[王国维] state:" since ancient time, capital of monarchs were located to the East......from the third King Tai kang[太康] up to the era of the last King Jie[桀], Xia captial and other toponymies recorded in ancient classics were located to the "eastern land"(shandong province), for centuries they lived side by side with the Shang in the Heji[河济] region(Shandong province).

Gu xiegang[顾颉刚] also think that:"Xia's sphere of influence mainly in Shandong", Yang xiangkui[杨向奎]:"The early Xia's political influence encompassed area belong to today's Shandong, Henan, Hebei provinces, especially in Shandong", "from the first king Qi[启]to middle Xia reigns, its political centre was located in Shandong, but its political influence also extended to Henan, Hebei provinces"; "Shandong was Xia people's settlement area in their early days, they migrated westwards laterly. When great Yu(father to Qi, the first Xia King) battled with flood, of nine regions of China,Gunzhou[衮州](in Shandong province) was the main area of his activities, with extension to parts of Yuzhou[豫州](in Henan province) and Xuzhou[徐州](in Jiangsu province) . later on, remains of "The great Yu battling flood" are to be found over many places in China, though the event was real, these remains were mostly strained interpretations."
Shandong was called "Zhongguo/middle kingdom" or "Jiuzhou/nine regions", where great Yu battled with flood.

But many documents which were made after the Zhou dynasty state that Xia's settlement area were located in Shanxi or Shannxi provinces, this is because there were great migrations of Xia people , the history is not well-known though. Some historians have already made comments on the migrations,but they covered only parts of it, for example Guo moruo[郭沫若] stated:" the people of Xia was the original people of China, but after they were banished by the Shang, where did they go? some migrated to the north." But those migrated northwards were only part of the Xia people, Xia descendants were located at places to other directions as well, not just to the north.

Those nations who think Great Yu was part of their history were descendants of the Xia. The distribution of Xia people after Shang replaced the Xia dynasty

-The "Dong yi"[东夷]

《世说新语言语》二十二 state:"the great Yu was born to Dongyi", "Dongyi" were quite powerful remanents of the Xia. Thats because "the land of dongyi" was the original settlement area of Xia.

The character "yi" [夷] in Shang oracle bone inscriptions were written as "shi"[尸]or "ren"[人],the "Shi fang"[尸方] or "ren fang"[人方] is the same as "yi fang"[夷方],Zhou's bronze ware inscription also called them "shi fang", they called the "dongyi" as "dong shi"[东尸], while the "huai yi"[淮夷] was called "huai shi"[淮尸]. Later, "shi" was used to mean corpse, to differentiate it from the original meaning, two strokes[二] were added to the original "shi"[尸], which became the character "ren"[仁], then "ren"[仁] was used to mean benevolence, another character "yi"[夷](as in "dongyi") was invented as a substitution, so originally, "ren"[人],"shi"[尸],"ren"[仁],"yi"[夷] were used to describe the same thing.

《说文》:"yi, men of the East", also called "dongyi", "yi"[夷] is the same as "ren"[人],the yi people lived in Shandong, today, in places like Jiaodong[胶东],Jiaonan[胶南], local dialect still pronounce "ren"[人] as "yin"[寅], very close to the sound of "yi"[夷],ancient pronunciations of "ren" and "yi" were alike.

Its probably began with the Shang, that "yi" or "dongyi" were seen as "non-Chinese" or "ethnic minority", such was not the case during the Xia dynasty.

The Shang regardless of their relations to the Shang, used the term "fang"[方] to call nations, thus "dongyi" were called "shi fang"[尸方] or "ren fang"[人方], i.e "yi fang"[夷方]; while the Shang called themselves "Shang fang"[商方]。So its obvious, up until this stage, the concept that the term "yi"[夷] means "non-Chinese/ethnic minority", were still not there, so the situation should be same during the Xia. According to records of Xia from《竹书纪年》, except few tribes like the Zhunxun[斟寻] and Minshan[岷山](those tribes also reside in the land of dongyi, which belong to dongyi culture), all the rest were referred to as "yi"[夷],for example:

-first year of King Dixiang[帝相],campaign against "Huai yi"[淮夷]
-second year, campaign agaisnt "feng yi"[风夷]and "huang yi"[黄夷]
-seventh year, "yu yi"[于夷] pays visiting

-Shaokang[少康]became the King, "fang yi"[方夷] visiting

-Fen became the King, third year, "quan yi"[畎夷],"yu yi"[于夷],"fang yi"[方夷],"huang yi"[黄夷],"bai yi"[白夷],"chi yi"[赤夷],"xuan yi"[玄夷],"feng yi"[风夷],"yang yi"阳夷 visiting.

-Xie became the King, twenty first year,orders to "quan yi","bai yi","chi yi","xuan yi","feng yi","yang yi"
-twenty first year, peerages given to "quan yi" etc

-first year of King Fa, all "yi" visiting the king, dances were performed by all "yi".

The tribes and nations associated with the Xia, whether they were rivals or friends were referred to as "yi"[夷],used just like the Shang term "fang"[方].

These "yi" werent reagrded by Xia as "non-Chinese/ethnic minority", but as associated tribes. Since Shang called itself "Shang fang"[商方],Xia probably also called itself "Xia ren/yi"[夏人/夷]。Hence during the Xia, the term "yi"[夷] was used to refer nation, while the term "fang"[方] was used to refer nation during the Shang, then the term "guo"[国] was used to refer nation by the Zhou. "ren"[人],"fang"[方],"guo"[国] had same connotation, so during the Xia, there was no difference between "Xia" and "yi", "yi" then was not referring to "non-Chinese". So Cheng deqi程德祺 in his《夏为东夷说略》argues Xia people were the same as "dongyi" which lived in today Shandong province.

Tang[汤](first Shang king) sent an expedition against Jie[桀](last Xia king), according to 《竹书纪年》,Jie lived at Zhenxun[斟寻](今山东潍坊西南五十里德斟城/in Shandong), so Tang led his army eastwards,and defeated Jie's army around today's Jining[济宁].But Tang didnt gain foothold in Shandong, instead he returned to Hao[亳] in a hurry. Thats because although Tang had defeated Jie's main force, which forced some Xia tribes to migtate, but there were still many Xia tribes remained in Shandong, they were numerous and warlike, Tang understand he had no way to pacify them immediately. Nevertheless, Shang has overthrew the Xia, and became the overlord. Those Xia tribes who remained to the east were called "ren"[人] by Shang,since Xia refer themselves as "ren", hence the term "ren fang"[人方], Guo morou:"so called "yi/ren fang", were the "dao yi"[岛夷] and "huai yi"[淮夷] in Shandong peninsula."

The "yi" rejected Shang rule, and were constantly having wars with the Shang, which made the Shang disdained them much, its from this background, that the term "yi" began to take the connotation "non-Chinese", while the term "dongyi" was originated around the "spring-autumn" period.

"Dongyi" were remanent of Xia people in Shandong which was their original country. Wars with the Shang were constant, according to《竹书纪年》,during era of yinzhongding[殷仲丁],hedanjia[河亶甲] campaigns were waged against the "lan yi"[蓝夷]; oracle bone inscription from the ruins of Yin/Shang recorded during king Wuding's reign, the queen Fuhao[妇好], and youhou[攸侯] led campaigns against "shi fang"[尸方]repeatedly; during reigns of king Diyi[帝乙] and Dixing[帝辛],massive military campaigns were waged against the "ren fang"[人方], there are many records regard these events from the oracle bone inscriptions. Guo moruo said:"Diyi offered ten sacrifices which were for the campaigns against "yi fang"[夷方], which endured long time."

But Diyi didnt conquer the "dongyi",it was achieved by his son king Zhou[商王纣]. After all the efforts, "dongyi" were finally pacified, many "dongyi" were captured by the Shang as slaves,,《左传昭公二十四年》引古本《大誓》state:"king Zhou captured millions of yi which were discontent towards him", this is definately an exaggeration, but still one can imagine there were many captives. But only part of the yi were taken away, many rather stayed but now as subjects to the Shang dynasty.《禹贡》, composed during "warring states" period, records there were still yi factions such as "dao/niao yi"[岛/鸟夷],"yu yi"[嵎夷],"lai yi"[莱夷],"huai yi"[淮夷],"he yi"[和夷] etc.

It was unfortunate for King Zhou,while he was concentrating on the war against "dongyi", the Zhou from the west took the opportunity, and invaded the Shang. King Zhou didnt anticipate such attack, he hurriedly armed the "dongyi" slaves and ordered them to fight the Zhou army,but the "yi" have bitter hate for the Shang, they let King Wu's army pass without fight, the Shang was defeated, King Zhou killed himslef. Like《左传昭公十一年》said:" King Zhou conquered the dongyi, but doomed himself."

The war between "dongyi" and the Shang were constant throughout the entire history of Shang dynasty, they were rather continued struggles between the Xia and the Shang.

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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 07:23
Hi Charioteer,
 
Just wondering, since Xia people was also been recognised as dong yi people. Does Zhou people related to Xia people at all? Because i've heard Houji was also offspring of huangdi so considering the new saying by chinese scholars/experts, would zhou people from the west be descendants of xia people as there was a massive migration to the west from the east.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 09:06

Originally posted by intem

since Xia people was also been recognised as dong yi people.Does Zhou people related to Xia people at all?

When the Zhou came to rule central plain, they did actually claim they are "people of Xia". States associated with the Zhou were referred to as "all Xia".
 
Because i've heard Houji was also offspring of huangdi so considering the new saying by chinese scholars/experts, would zhou people from the west be descendants of xia people as there was a massive migration to the west from the east.
 
Remanents of Xia migrated to Shannxi and Shanxi provinces. According to the author, the "quan rong" in Shanxi were related to the Xia, "quan rong" had the surname Ji, which is the same to that of Zhou, which is in Shannxi.
Zhou's surname Ji is related to Xia's surname Si.


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Sep-2006 at 09:24
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 16:01

You can t find pure Han-Chinese nowadays

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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 18:26
Hi charioteer 
I can see your points. However, would you see Xia-Shang-Zhou people as been the same group of people since Xia people was been recognized as dong yi, but not the term in later day applications which refers to other ethnic background such as korean or japan.
 
What we know currently is that, Xia and zhou people was considered hua xia people or sinic people correct me if im wrong about this since im not been too specific. However shang was been considered as tungus from some sites i read off or they were consider as dong yi but of course the shang probably had nothing to do with tungusic people, its just they extended their sphere of ruling around them which some tungusic people fell in the hands of shang rulers.
 
It would sound im talking about racial difference, but i have no means of causing any flame bait to the thread, however im keen into learning more about ethnicity of people during xia, shang, zhou era since someone startled me into this idea. Espcially since i saw in some claims like this one says that korean claim that they were the true dong yi descendants, but theres has been many doubts to that:
 
 
So i would like to apologise if flyingzone or some other mods sees this. As i know there has been a korean-chinese issue previously in AE and there is another one in CHF recently as i believe its the same person with the same motive.


Edited by intem - 21-Sep-2006 at 18:35
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 20:44
I can see your points. However, would you see Xia-Shang-Zhou people as been the same group of people since Xia people was been recognized as dong yi, but not the term in later day applications which refers to other ethnic background such as korean or japan.
 
May be not originally, but they merged as one group, at least by the time of "spring-autumn". The Zhou migrated westwards with the Xia after Shang banished the Xia dynasty.
 
What we know currently is that, Xia and zhou people was considered hua xia people or sinic people correct me if im wrong about this since im not been too specific. However shang was been considered as tungus from some sites i read off or they were consider as dong yi but of course the shang probably had nothing to do with tungusic people, its just they extended their sphere of ruling around them which some tungusic people fell in the hands of shang rulers.
 
The term "hua xia" are not found from Shang oracle bone inscriptions, but are  found in the Zhou writtings. It was a term more to describe ethnic relation originally but then extended to include culturally related states, such as the descendant states of the Shang.
 
and you have said that Shang was Tungusic people before, but you havent provided with convincing evidence.
 
It would sound im talking about racial difference, but i have no means of causing any flame bait to the thread, however im keen into learning more about ethnicity of people during xia, shang, zhou era since someone startled me into this idea. Espcially since i saw in some claims like this one says that korean claim that they were the true dong yi descendants, but theres has been many doubts to that:
 
The term Dongyi had different meaning in different context. According to this study, the term was orginally referring to the Xia, but it became a term to describe "non-Chinese" group during the Shang, since the Shang disdained the remanents of Xia. But as the term began to take the connotation to describe non-Chinese nations or groups who live to the east of China, it also extended to include states such as Korea and Japan, and Tungusic tribes which are to the east.
 
For instance, from "Jin Shu", it state, "Korea,Japan,Moheetc are "dongyi" nations"; but it at the same time described nations west of China as "Xi rong", actually many nations or groups in the "western region" then were not related at all to originally "xi rong", but just like the usage of the term "dongyi", "xi rong" here is roughly referring all nations who are located to the west of China. 


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Sep-2006 at 21:01
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 23:53
I think some went north to eventually evolve into the
Xiongnu confederation. Sima Qian mentioned this .
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by cliveersknell

I think some went north to eventually evolve into the
Xiongnu confederation. Sima Qian mentioned this .
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I agree. Some Mongolic people also claimed they come from Xia origin in the 3rd and 4th century.
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  Quote goguryeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 08:17
Mr. Charioteer, I'm afraid the base of Xia operations was much farther west than Shandong. If you check out the Wikipedia article on Xia, they will show a map of Xia territory; it was the central Huang He plain only. Hu the Great, the first Xia ruler, had his capital at Yangcheng (modern-day Dengfeng), which is in Henan. Shanxi and Henan were the nucleus of the Xia state. Shandong (then called Shennong) was the realm of the completely independent Jiuli (Dongyi) people, who were Australoid Hmongs. The first Shang Dynasty called Li (the Black Shangs) came from Jiuli nobles. The first Shang emperor was Tang the Blackbird, who overthrew the Xia in 1675 BC. As a matter of fact, the Longshan culture which Yu the Great conquered was slightly paler Hmong, not Chinese at all. The Chinese language didn't even exist until the Zhou Dynasty brought the Tibetan language with them from the west when they overthrew the Eun (latter-day) Shang dynasty. Their Tibetan Xirong dialect combined with the Korean/Hmong patois of the Huaxia to form the first Old Chinese. I was shocked when I found out how young the Chinese language is, only 3,000 years old. So what was spoken in the uncentralized city-states of Longshan? Hmong, of course, although even then they called themselves the Hua, the earliest Chinese name for themselves. But who were the Xia, and where did they come from? I'm not Korean, I'm Italian, but I still believe that the Xia were Proto-Koreans from Hebei and the Liao valley. The name of the Korean state at this time was Shinshi, and Xia is pronounced Shia. Yu's father was named Gun, and this sounds like Dangun, the king of Shinshi at this time. The dynasty that preceded the Xia, the so-called Legendary Emperors, was started by Xuanyuan the Yellow Emperor. Xuanyuan defeated Chiwu (Jaoji), king of Shinshi and the Hmongs in a death struggle between the Tibetan Xirongs and the Korean Shinshi over who would control the rich Hmongic riverlands. To this day the Hmongs worship Chiwu as a god, but they call him Txivyawg. The Tibetans were victorious at first, but I believe that Yu the Great finally defeated them with his Korean Shia tribe and consolidated the first formal monarchy in Proto-China (2205 BC). The Xirong wouldn't be back for more than a thousand years. But the conquering Zhou were a Huaxia-Rong mixture, and they made sure that Chinese became a Tibetic language, which it still is today. So what was this Huaxia language that was spoken till then? It started out as a Korean/Hmong mixture, but became as different from Korean as Japanese is. A Hmong/Korean combination couldn't have been too pretty; lots of t's and x's and v's sounded together, as bad as Basque. As a matter of fact, it could have been the ancestor of Proto-Japanese; Japan got its first big semi-Altaic invasion in 250 BC, from Jiangsu instead of Korea. Honinigi, the Dongyi leader who brought his people to Kyushu (and great-grandfather of Jimmu Tenno), was really Hong Yi, a scion of the royal house of the Chinese Kingdom of Wu. He was a descendant of the Zhou duke named Taibo, as Emperess Himiko proudly confided to Chinese ambassadors. The Koreans wouldn't be along until Ungjin married Himiko's daughter Iyo in 270 AD. What finally happened to the Xia? I think that the Shang rulers awarded the survivors with small estates which they held until the Warring States period. The Shang had Xia blood anyways. Complicated? You bet. Man, you don't know how much trouble it was to find all of this out. I hope that it can be of some use to you.

Edited by goguryeo - 13-Feb-2011 at 18:58
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 08:26
The Charioteer hasn't been active for a very long time, unfortunately. 
 
I will take this opportunity to propose an alternative to what happened to the Xia.  They came to the West Coast of America.  By the by, no less a mainstream archeaologist than Betty Meggers of the Smithsonian happens to hold the same ideas.
 
 
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  Quote goguryeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 08:31
Hi Charioteer. I've replied to your Xia post in great detail, but I forgot to put it under Reply. Since you first posted in 2006, I thought I should tell you. It's at the bottom of the thread. Hope it can be of some use. Ying Yang I like these smilies, I wish they had dumber ones.
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  Quote goguryeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 08:36
Holy mush! The first Hmong community? Did they go to Stockton? Well, who the heck did they become? The Zunis? The Gabrielenos? Who?Shocked Well now I've heard everything!
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 09:13
 
Nahh,  you never get to hear everythingBig smile  This is in the main museum in Mexico City, it's labeled- Olmec Jade Mask.
 
This is from the same period, labled Olmec.  Found in Oaxaca.
 
These are just a couple of examples.  There are in fact many more artifacts that tell the same story.
 
 
 
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  Quote goguryeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 07:40
But... I do not mean to screw up your favorite theory or anything, but I always heard that the Olmecs were originally Libyan and Egyptian colonists who first settled in West Africa (around Senegal) and then sailed across the sea to the shores of Mexico. I know that the Olmecs gave rise to all of the great Mexican civilizations, like the Mayans and the Aztecs. Although some Japanese definitely made it to Peru at a very early date (the Incas already had Japanese chickens when the conquistadores arrived), I don't think the ocean currents were quite right for the Chinese to have crossed the Pacific to Mexico (the currents are perfect for Japan to Peru, but not back); besides, the Chinese never had a great ocean-going tradition, the Xia least of all. The Shang deposed the Xia in 1675 BC, I don't think the Proto-Chinese were even sailing as far as Japan at that point; their boats were probably gigantic canoes, fit for Huang He river traffic only. If the Libyans and Egyptians had Phoenician pilots for their vessels (as is likely), chances are good to excellent that they were the ones who got there. The trans-Atlantic crossing was much more survivable. A book I have on the American civilizations says that Olmec statues have African features, which makes me think they came after an extended stay in West Africa. The Zuni tribe of New Mexico speaks a Phoenician-based language to this very day; they're obviously the descendents of Phoenician colonists who moved up the Rio Grande to get away from the hurricanes. The Phoenicians definitely knew the way to America. I love the Xia and the Chinese, but I don't think they had the seafaring skills for the kind of voyage that killed a huge part of Magellan's crew many years later. The Xia lived thousands of miles away from the nearest Polynesians, who would have been the only ones in that neck of the woods who could have gotten them across in one piece. Polynesians from the Marquesas went frequently to Peru, where they bartered for sweet-potatoes. With all due respect for your Xia theory, I think it more likely that it was the Egyptians/Libyans/Phoenicians/West Africans who started the Olmec. The clincher is that Olmec civilization didn't begin until 1000 BC, and Xia Civilization ended in 1675 BC; that's almost a 700 year hiatus. The Shang fell in 1045 BC, the timeframe's right for the Shang; but the Chinese seafaring skills were non-existent at that point in history. And yet...looking again at those striking masks, they look totally Chinese, not at all African. The Olmec African-looking sculptures I saw were all from the Atlantic coast. Perhaps this is two separate colonizations we are seeing here. Were the Olmecs even on the Pacific? Maybe it was another Indian tribe like the Zapotecs who met the Chinese. I guess some obliging Japanese just may have taken the Shang that far, although I don't know why stay-at-homes like them would have any desire to go to the ends of the earth.  But don't forget our old friends the Egyptians for the Atlantic coast, they knew the way. After all, they started the Micmacs in Maine; the Micmacs have the hieroglyphics to prove it. You should read the fine book called "America BC", by Barry Fell; it tells all about the many, many trans-Atlantic colonizations that took place before the birth of Christ. Thank you very much for responding to my post. And maybe the Japanese did take some of the Shang, who knows? Wait, the Japanese were still Ainu at this point; they had canoes. It had to have been the Dravidians, they were great seafarers at this point. Maybe the Shang linked up with the West Africans somewhere in central Mexico. That's a meeting I would have loved to have seen! Actually I'm convinced now, those masks look too Chinese for coincidence. But it couldn't have been the Olmecs, they only lived on the Atlantic coast. It must have been their Pacific contemporaries, all I can think of is the Zapotecs. Please give me a few more details, like locale and dates. Oh yeah, Oaxaca, that's the Zapotecs. So the Dravidians (or even better, the Malays!)  took the Shang to see the Zapotecs. The Shang people at this time called themselves the Huaxia, so your theory is still correct. Interesting idea. 

Edited by goguryeo - 14-Feb-2011 at 20:44
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 09:03
America BC is a great book. Fell didn't get everything right, but he certainly is closer to the truth than a lot of his contemporaries thought.
 
You are now experiencing "diffusionist overload."  I did not mean to imply that the Olmec were Chinese, or any thing else for that matter.  The masks are labeled Olmec because that is the context in which they were found.  At the time most of the artifacts were found it would have been professional suicide to suggest that they were anything but Olmec.
I personally don't believe the Olmec were anything but Native American.  What I do believe is that both coasts of the Americas were a hell of a lot busier than what mainstream arch. would have us believe.
 
 
                                      
Sanxindui Culture, China
 
 
 
Sanxindui Culture, China
 
 
 
 
 
 
Credited as Olmec, oaxaca
 
 
 
 
 
 
  All found in Central Mexico.
 
 
There are thousands of artifacts that indicate influences from just about every corner of the world.
 
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 19:10
Yes! Funny isn't it, that that old Norse writer and explorer, who made a science out of Ocean Currnets, and the drift derived thereof, now seems to have been some-what correct?

Can you say "Aku-aku", or "Con-tiki?"

Thanks Thor!
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 23:06
Probably because he was still able to take a groundlevel view of things.
 
The human spirit is the single most important factor,  and it gets overlooked all the time.  The drive to see what's on the other side, to achieve.  Also, naysayers who say that there weren't seaworthy ships large enough for voyages of length, fail to recognize that the Ocean levels were a lot lower 6,000 - 4,000 bce  and there were many more small islands existing then.  Much less time sailing open water.
 
 
Oh, and I can say them both, just never in public.Big smile
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 23:36
Originally posted by goguryeo

 
........
 
I don't think the ocean currents were quite right for the Chinese to have crossed the Pacific to Mexico (the currents are perfect for Japan to Peru, but not back); besides, the Chinese never had a great ocean-going tradition, the Xia least of all. The Shang deposed the Xia in 1675 BC, I don't think the Proto-Chinese were even sailing as far as Japan at that point; their boats were probably gigantic canoes, fit for Huang He river traffic only.
 
.......
 
 I love the Xia and the Chinese, but I don't think they had the seafaring skills for the kind of voyage that killed a huge part of Magellan's crew many years later. The Xia lived thousands of miles away from the nearest Polynesians, who would have been the only ones in that neck of the woods who could have gotten them across in one piece.
..... 
 
  
 
The ancient Chinese had indeed no seagoing tradition but southern China (meaning the southern half of current China) was not ethnically Chinese in ancient times. Until circa 500 BC most of southern China was inhabited by Thai, Mon-Khmer and Austronesian/Malayo-Polynesian groups. 
Maritime technology was well developed among the more southern peoples, especially among the Malayo-Polynesian seafarers ( to whom the Polynesians are related) who lived at the south-east coast, or were in any case active along these coastlines (already since at least 2000 BC) making long coastal and open sea voyages.
Its known that the Chinese of later times (Han and Tang period) used /chartered mainly Malay archipelago (and middle-eastern) crews and ships for long voyages to India, South East Asia and the Midde-East.
Regarding the Shang:  They too had contact with  the non-Chinese groups of the south and of South-East Asia,  so  for long travels they were also in the position to use ships and crews from these regions.
 
 
Star
 


Edited by Sander - 13-Feb-2011 at 00:08
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  Quote goguryeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2011 at 17:54
Barry Fell thought the Mandan were Welsh and the Zuni were Phoenician, ha-ha! Trouble is, he was right. Aren't the Pacific people the Zapotecs, not the Olmecs? Some of the ancient Mexican statues even look Caucasian (probably Baal of the Phoenicians). And there were those black Atlantic statues I told you about. But some of those Mexican sculptures look as Chinese as Beijing, it can't be coincidence. The gentleman above is right, it must have been the Malays; they were a lot closer at hand than the Dravidians. At the time, they probably lived where Canton is now. And the Malays were great seafarers like their relatives the Polynesians. Normally the Shang never associated with the "Miao" of the South. But when they were driven from power by the Zhou, a sizeable colony of them could have resettled in the Canton area. Maybe fear of another Zhou invasion drove them to the decision to seek a home where the Zhou could never find them. So they got the Malays to take them out into the Pacific; at some point, the Malays got tired and passed them on to the Polynesians. Melanesians certainly got to the tip of Baja California, there were black people there when the Spanish arrived. Maybe folks from the Marquesas were trying to take them to Peru; but the Shang objected, and insisted they go north. They probably hated the stars being so different that far south; it was bad for astrology. After a brief stop at the desolate Islas Revillagigedo, the Polynesians conveyed the Shang to Oaxaca. So they arrived amongst the Zapotecs, or whoever, and aided them in making those amazing sculptures. Of course those Native Americans were 99% Amerind, but they had visitors from abroad who contributed a few ideas. North America had tons of immigrants even then. Come to think of it, the stimulus of foreign ideas must have had a little to do with the Incas' stellar rise too. For instance, no one can deny that the United States is a much greater country because of the ideas of the immigrants; Vladimir Zworykin invented the television. 

Edited by goguryeo - 14-Feb-2011 at 19:04
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2011 at 09:16
There are many things to consider.  However don't make the mistake of thinking the exchange of ideas was all one way.  It is an easy jump to think that the "Amerinds" were reliant on outside ideas.  It didn't work that way.
I believe that most interactions between the Americas and other landforms were stimulated by trade.  Ideas were exchanged through trade.  Don't get caught in the pit of "the Amerinds learned everything from somone else."  I for one think that writing may have happened first in the Americas.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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