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"Caucasians" preceded East Asians in Tarim Basin

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Caucasians" preceded East Asians in Tarim Basin
    Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 19:57
I don't know whether a similar thread on the same topic already exists here, but this is definitely fascinating.
 
 
According to a "working hypothesis" put forward by J.P. Mallory & Victor H. Mair based on the discovery of the "celtic mummies" in Xinjiang, China, the earliest Bronze Age colonists of the Tarim Basin were people of Caucasoid physical type who entered probably from the north and west, and probably spoke languages that could be classified as Pre- or Proto-Tocharian, ancestral to the Indo-European Tocharian languages documented later in the Tarim Basin. These early settlers occupied the northern and eastern parts of the Tarim Basin, where their graves have yielded mummies dated about 1800 B.C. They did not arrive from Europe, but probably had lived earlier near the Altai Mountains, where their ancestors had participated in a cultural world centered on the eastern steppes of central Eurasia, including modern northeastern Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tadjikistan. At the eastern end of the Tarim Basin, people of Mongoloid physical type began to be buried in cemeteries such as Yanbulaq some centuries later, during the later second or early first millennium B.C. About the same time, Iranian-speaking people moved into the Tarim Basin from the steppes to the west. Their linguistic heritage and perhaps their physical remains are found in the southern and western portions of the Tarim. These three populations interacted, as the linguistic and archaeological evidence reviewed by Mallory and Mair makes clear, and then Turkic peoples arrived and were added to the mix.
 
More information:
 

Caucasians preceded East Asians in basin


By Robert J. Saiget
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

URUMQI, China -- After years of controversy and political intrigue, archaeologists using genetic testing have proved that Caucasians roamed China's Tarim Basin 1,000 years before East Asian people arrived.
    The research finding -- which the Beijing government apparently delayed releasing, fearing it could fuel Uighur Muslim separatism in China's western-most Xinjiang region -- is based on a cache of ancient dried-out corpses that have been found around the Tarim Basin in recent decades.

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old "Beauty of Loulan" and the 3,000-year-old body of the "Charchan Man" are legendary in international archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research.
    In historic and scientific circles, the discoveries along the ancient Silk Road were on a par with finding the Egyptian mummies.
    But the separatists in Xinjiang have embraced the Caucasoid mummies as evidence that the Uighurs do not belong in China, forcing Beijing to slow the research.
    "It is unfortunate that the issue has been so politicized, because it has created a lot of difficulties," said Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of "The Tarim Mummies."
    The desiccated corpses, which avoided natural decomposition because of the dry atmosphere and alkaline soils in the Tarim Basin, have given historians a glimpse of life in the Bronze Age.
    Mr. Mair, a University of Pennsylvania professor who played a pivotal role in bringing the discoveries to Western scholars in the 1990s, has struggled to take samples out of China for genetic testing. One recent expedition was allowed to take five samples out.
    "From the evidence available, we have found that during the first 1,000 years after the Loulan Beauty, the only settlers in the Tarim Basin were Caucasoid," Mr. Mair said.
    East Asian peoples began showing up in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin only about 3,000 years ago, he said, while the Uighurs arrived after the collapse of the Orkhon Uighur Kingdom, largely based in modern-day Mongolia, about the year 842.
    A study last year by Jilin University also found that the mummies' DNA had Europoid genes.
    Meanwhile, Yingpan Man, a nearly perfectly preserved 2,000-year-old Caucasoid mummy, was allowed this month to leave China for the first time, and is being displayed at the Edo-Tokyo Museum.
    The Yingpan Man, discovered in 1995 in the region that bears his name, has a gold foil death mask -- a Greek tradition -- covering his blond bearded face, and wears elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.
    His nearly 6-foot-6 body is the tallest of all the mummies found, and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region.
    When the Yingpan Man returns from Tokyo to Urumqi, where he has long been kept out of public eye, he is expected to be finally put on display when the Xinjiang Museum opens this year.
    

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 20:12
I love the way Caucasoid gets sensationalsed as the very-American centric term caucasian in media coverage.
Anyways i thought it was long established that Tocharian wasn't Celtic.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 03:24
Uyghurs were also caucasaoid origin.the ancestor of uyghurs,Dinglings,were described by chinese historians as yellow or red haired and blue eyed people.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 03:37
Funny howthe caucasian word crops up again & again
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  Quote galvatron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:56
I think they were xiong nu ancestor or xiong nu themself.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 06:06
I'm really sick of these type of reports with Euro-centric view. These mummies are surely part of the ethnic ancestors of the mordern Uyghur people.

Toharians language script dates back to 6-8 AD, while these mummies are more that 3000-4000 years old. There is no any proof to link them to Toharians. Anyway Toharian is a very seperate group of its own among Indo-european language system.

Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 08:18
Its hardly euro-centric to point out they have caucasoid shaped skulls.

They did not arrive from Europe, but probably had lived earlier near the Altai Mountains


OMG, soooo 'Euro-centric'. Not.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 10:29

    The Yingpan Man, discovered in 1995 in the region that bears his name, has a gold foil death mask -- a Greek tradition -- covering his blond bearded face, and wears elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.     His nearly 6-foot-6 body is the tallest of all the mummies found, and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region.

It is soooooooooo Euro-centric.

Anyway, Mair's work is big step comparing to the past few years of reports based on unscientific presumptions. But still they can't face the fact that the Caucasoid people didn't necessarily speak Indo-european language. They can't face the fact that the ancient Uyghur people even before migration show similar physical trait as those of the mummies (Although Mair admit this in his book, but the reports are still continuing to hint that Uyghurs were East Asian). They can't face that fact that some cultural remnants, which are similar, date much older than the European findings.
    
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 16:45
Hardly, its pointing out similarities, they even stick in the word 'seemingly'.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 10:35
Don't be so naive my friend.

Mair (as a Ancient Chinese historian) started interesting in these mummies after he saw the "Cherchen Man" and got amazed that the body looked like his brother.

He also called the region as far colony of Europeans.

He also claimed the original inhabitants (the desendants of the mummies) were driven and killed, while failing to provide any historic proof.

He said the genetics are Europoid.(Isn't it funny? there is no so called Europoid gene). Although the results have never been published.

He initially drew a map of the Indo-european migration centering his home country (He is an Austrian migrant) where the "Ice Man" was found.

He mangaged to get the DNA samples after long negotiation with Chinese Authorities. What was the deal? He surely promised he would disconnect the local Uyghurs from the Mummies. So that both sides get benefit, he can prove Europeans influenced Chinese culture (Which claimed to be self developed). Chinese can quench the Uyghur pride.

Now tell me, he is not Euro-centric?

All the mummies look like the present day Uyghurs physically. Genetically Uyghurs (together with Ozbek, tatar etc Central Asians) have the most ancient genetic mark all over Euro-Asian continent. We are just waiting for the DNA result of the mummies.






    

Edited by barbar - 26-Sep-2006 at 10:43
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 11:19
And what does the above article do?
Dismiss much of that sillyness.

they did not arrive from Europe


Rules out Austria then.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 08:01
Originally posted by barbar

I'm really sick of these type of reports with Euro-centric view. These mummies are surely part of the ethnic ancestors of the mordern Uyghur people.

Toharians language script dates back to 6-8 AD, while these mummies are more that 3000-4000 years old. There is no any proof to link them to Toharians. Anyway Toharian is a very seperate group of its own among Indo-european language system.

 
Surely? Then where is your proof?  While it is without doubt that these people lend genetic heritage to modern Uyghars, there is absolutely nothing to link the ancients with Turkic speakers.  The script dated 6-8AD is pretty substantial. Frankly, it is quite a relief that it exists.  If you argue the heritage of these people witht he existence of this script and without any evidence to support your own view then I can only imagine with horror how it would be without.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 09:45

First of all, I didn't say these ancient people were Turkic speaking, although it's possible. There is no any kind of proof yet about what language these mummies spoke.

There are plenty of writen documents from this region dates much earlier than those of the Toharian ones, most of which haven't yet been deciphered, and there is a lot of work to be done.

Toharian documents were found in Turpan and Kucha, cities along the Tenri mountains. While these mummies were found from the cities along the Tarim river.

These caucasians mummies are different from the Europoid caucasians in term of scull shape.

Therefore linking these mummies with the Toharians is a very weak theory, IMO.

You know there are still many groups who are caucasian but don't speak Indo-european, (Caucaus people, dravidian etc.)

Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 15:14
Tocharian vocabulary (sample)
Modern English Tocharian A Tocharian B Irish Latin Ancient Greek Sanskrit *Proto-Indo-European
one sas e aon ūnus heis eka *hoinos or *sems
two wu wi d duo duo dvāu *duoh1
three tre trai tr trēs treis tri *treyes
four śtwar śtwer ceathair quattuor tssares catvāras *kwetwores
five p piś cig quīnque pente paka *penkwe
six k kas s sex hx ṣṣ *(s)weḱs
seven pt ukt seacht septem hept sapt *septm
eight okt okt hocht octō okt aṣṭa *oḱtoh3
nine u u naoi novem enna nva *newn
ten śk śak deich decem deka daśa *deḱm
hundred knt kante cead centum hekatn śatm *ḱmtom
father pācar pācer athair pater patēr pit *ph2tēr
mother mācar mācer mthair mater mētr māt *me2tēr
brother pracar procer brthair frāter phrtēr bhrātā *bhre2tēr
sister ar er sir soror or svas *swesor
(horse) yuk yakwe each equus hppos śva *eḱwo-
cow ko keu b bos bos gās *gwou-
(voice) vak vek focal vōx pos vāk *wekw-
to milk malk mlk bligh mulgēre amlgein marjati *melg-
name om em ainm nomen noma nāman *nomn
 
 
im into the linguistics
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 15:55

What is the significance of their skull shape? There is no consistant skull shape among IE speakers.

I wonder why the above lists Irish but not Iranic and Slavic?  I will add Persian which is very similar to other Iranian lnaguages in the above.
 
One - yek
Two - do
Three - se
Four - chahar
Five - panj
Six - sheish
Seven - haft
eight - hasht
Nine - noh
Ten - dah
Hundred - Sad
Father - Pedar
Mother - Madar
Brother - Baradar
Sister - Khahar
Horse - asp
Name - nam
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 16:24
Alot of these initial "studies" took place in the early 20th Century some were conducted by certain European anthropologists and historians with Eurocentric views trying to spread the idea that civillisation began in Europe and the Aryans spread it all across the world.
 
This ofcourse led to the ideals of Nazi style philosophies, they sent Anthropologists and Historians all across Eurasia to proove that the Aryan Super Race ruled all of Eurasia.
 
Ofcourse these silly racist ideas were conducted by people who already had their conclusion and were merely looking for anything they could manipulate to make their theory seem a little more credible.
 
Its funny how some people still think, Mongoloid peoples, Chinease, Turkic etc people's stayed in their little confined space in some far away remote mountain while Europeans paraded around the globe and lived exclusively alone with their own people only.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 04:58
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 07:13
The irony of it is, Kurgan is a Turkic word and there are Kurgans in the Altay area aswell, so are Turks Indo-European? did Indo-Europeans originate from the far-East? or could it be possible that like today different peole's lived together, mixed and merged together and had common customs like "Kurgan" burials back then. Why must "only" Indo-Europeans have this culture if it has a culture of the Steppe, Nomadic people travel large distances and mix alot.

The whole idea that we were all totally seperate from each other back then and Indo-Europeans lived solely alone in the Steppe's doing everything whilst the other's did absolutly nothing is a ridiculous theory.    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 08-Oct-2006 at 07:15
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 12:09

is it?

its linguistics, not genetics.
 
any way zagros, i would be intresting to know alittle more farsi,
 
especialy, your words for crops, and also drinks, esp, the word Mede/meed. beer.
 
corn, wheat ,oat etc.
 
 
i think farsi and slavic were missing from that list, as most linguistics already know they are very similar, .
 
i have been chatting to a serbian i work with all week , alone these lines, and the funny thing is many his slavic words are more like the hindu tongue than the english.
 
he was very suprised when his word for 100 was more like the indian word that the english.
 
thank you.
 


Edited by Gracchi - 09-Oct-2006 at 12:18
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 03:09
This way if we see all similarities would point to an Asian origin for the so called caucasians. rather a more eastern one.
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