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Why was Europe First?

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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why was Europe First?
    Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:10
Indeed - amazing statues and pictures Preobrazhenskoe - Thank you!
 
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:26
No problem Northman. Personally, I'm most impressed by the Charles Freer Gallery of Chinese paintings and porcelain vases, although I enjoy the architecture of the pagodas. Hrothgar doesn't seem to think much of them, but I agree with Hrothgar that late Medieval and Renaissance era castles and cathedrals are magnificent. However, I think people should post pics of more classical Roman and Greek achievements. 
 
In the meantime, more pics from the Freer Gallery...
 
Guanyin of the Water Moon
 
Guanyin of the Water Moon, 986 AD, during the Northern Song Period, originally from Dunhuang, China. Handscroll on silk.
 
Ladies Playing Double-Sixes
 
Ladies Playing Double-Sixes, 10th-11th century AD of the Song Dynasty, although the original painting is attributed to Zhou Fang (c. 730-800 AD) during the Tang Dynasty
 
An Immortal standing under a pine near a brookStill life - a black vase and flowers
 
An Immortal Standing Under a Pine Near a Brook, and A Still Life - A Black Vase and Flowers, Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644)
 
A Man taking his ease
 
A Man Taking His Ease, handscroll on silk, 15th century
 
The Kuan-yin of the fish-basket
 
The Kuan-Yin of the Fish Basket, handscroll on silk, 15th century
 
A Group of Lohan floating upon waves and clouds
 
A Group of Lohan Floating Upon Waves and Clouds, painted in 1610 AD, handscroll on silk
 
A Tartar Huntsman on His Horse
 
A Tartar Huntsmen on His Horse, 15th century, ink and color on silk
 
Deva KingsLandscape: palace buildings among mountains
 
Deva Kings, hanging scroll of the late Yuan Dynasty, 14th century, as well as Qiu Ying's Palace Buildings Among Mountains, 16th century
 
A Luohan and a demonA Bodhisattva and two attendants
 
A Luohan and a Demon, Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644), as well as the Bodhisattva and Two Attendants, late Yuan period in the 14th century
 
And finally below, the Imperial Park, by Qiu Ying (1494 - 1552)
 
The Imperial Park
 
Glad to be of service, 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 28-Sep-2006 at 02:42
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:31

Really cool ,Amzaing stuff.

I think you would have to be extremely biased to say european architecture is Superior to chinese.Or chinese Superior to European.

When it comes down to it there Different not better,just like lion vs tiger debate.

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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 02:28
some of them are very cool.!
Samos national guard.

260 days left.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 02:58
One Question why is the colours always light Brown, and the faces usually Ugly for the men
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 03:04
img=http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8117/retinueat4.jpg
 
How do u get to post pictures you do  non han ban?


Edited by BigL - 28-Sep-2006 at 03:08
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 03:33
I don't know, BigL, maybe some people are just ugly. Lol. Just kidding. In my opinion, after seeing hundreds of work under the Freer Smithsonian Gallery, most of those "ugly" Chinamen are stylistically ugly, with misshapen heads and what not, and I'd say 85% of anyone who was ugly in a Chinese painting are those Luohan Buddhist guys, while everyone else appears normal or extravegant.
Anyways, for a change of pace, here are some Ming Dynasty paintings that are not from the Freer gallery, and which are of military cavalry and the like. Enjoy!
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
 
The last painting, the big guy on the boat, that's Emperor Wanli (reigned 1572 - 1620 AD), he was the Chinese Emperor who sent land and naval forces to aid the Koreans when Toyotomi Hideyoshi of Japan invaded Joseon Kingdom with nearly 200,000 troops (both campaigns) in the 1590s. Here's one of an earlier ruler below, Emperor Jiajing (1522 - 1567 AD) being escorted by Imperial Guard cavalry. Keep in mind, it was the Emperor before Jiajing who first opened overseas relations with the incoming Portuguese and the Western World...
 
IPB Image
 
Good stuff,
Eric
P.S. BigL, I just copy and paste, I don't even bother with imageshack unless I'm on simaqian or chinahistoryforum. Best of luck!


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 28-Sep-2006 at 03:35
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:21

The Chinese tradition and technique in depicting humans seems closer to European art up to Trecento.

Cimabue:

 
Giotto:
 
 
Duccio di Buoninsegna:
 
 
Lorenzetti:
 
 
 
Getting now at landscapes, let see how 17th century European landscapes look:
 
Lorrain:
 
 
 
 
Ruisdael:
 
 
 
 
and even Vermeer:
 
 
now that I remembered Vermeer I must show you one of his masterpieces (talking again of representation of the human):
 
 
 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 11:39
Absolutely amazing art, reminds me that I should go to museums more often. The Vermeer piece just above is absolutely stunning.
Chinese art is more representational of scenes of everyday life whilst the western masters reached a proportion in representing the human form  unmatched even to our day.
Few of the Chinese statues are free-standing and all have the same air of meditative otherworldliness. Sculture is the West, on the other hand, became a mean to its own end, a viable bussiness that competed in styles and forms. I absolutely agree that we shouldn't compare the techniques involved; the important part is the functionality of the art within the culture that produced it. In China we have amazing silkworks, paintings, and caricatures of important persons, scenes of court ceremonial, and the like. Stylistically Chinese art is somewhat restricted, i.e.  persons  are depicted  in a certain way always,  mostly on a two-dimensioanal background; statues are seldomly free-standing and somewhat uniform, the emphasis placed on not depicting the person as much but on the "air" and the spirituality instead.
It is obvious that Chinese art never reached the dynamism, flow, and variation in the depiction of the human form that exemplifies western masterpieces. This is NOT to say that Chinese art is "inferior"; it underlies the differences in the cultural outlook and the variations in the social function of art. In China the arts were endowed by the Emperor's court and emphasized not the indivinduality of the subject-matter, but the  uniformity instead.  It seems that art, great as it became,  remained subject to a certain function, a role. In the West, on the other hand, anything went as far as  techniques, styles, nudity,  depiction of human form. 
Chinese art resembles, well, China: tranquil, ancient, steady, set, stylistically somewhat rigid.  Western art is like a storm, an explosion of colors and synthesis. Not better or worse, just different.
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:08
Originally posted by Dream208

 
Why is stone building better than the wood building? artisitcally speaking?


Artistically speaking wooden and stone architecture are incommensurable, of course. But in all other terms of input (working hours, financial expenses, technological know how, construction time, logistical problems) wooden architecture can't hold a candle to stone architecture.

That Chinese palace, which leaves today almost no trace, has been the biggest of all, exactly because it could be so easily constructed with easily available materials like wood and earth. Actually, it has been calculated that a single peasant could erected more than 10 meters of the Chinese in a month, if it was to be a rammed earth and reed affair. By contemporary Han sources. You can make the maths what that means for the evaluation of such grandiose projects. I would not even dream of comparing that palace with Angkor Wat, however high, long and wide that Chinese earth palace may have been.

If you ask me, for such a long standing civilization, China features indeed very few extant monuments.








Edited by Gun Powder Ma - 28-Sep-2006 at 12:32
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:21
Originally posted by konstantinius

I absolutely agree that we shouldn't compare the techniques involved...


In a way one should. What many people still do not know is that perspectivity in art had actually to be invented! It was Leone Battista Alberti who is usually credited with the first systematic work on artistic perspective (De Pictura, 1435), but also Filippo Bruneschelli had already shown a scietific understanding of peerspectivity.

As far as I can see, this perspectivity - an invention of the Renaissance - remained pretty long a unique feature of European art, something which European artists used routinely and others didn't.













Edited by Gun Powder Ma - 28-Sep-2006 at 12:34
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:53
it's funny how quickly the red flag of 'relative' 'different' and 'subjective' comes up in this thread when making comparisons of art and architecture, and yet by the same token it's doubltess that China is supposed to be 'superior' and more 'advanced' than the West in other areas.
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 13:12
Originally posted by Hrothgar

it's funny how quickly the red flag of 'relative' 'different' and 'subjective' comes up in this thread when making comparisons of art and architecture, and yet by the same token it's doubltess that China is supposed to be 'superior' and more 'advanced' than the West in other areas.


I find myself agreeing. And actually, we have not even begun to treat the subject of Greco-Roman and Pre-Tang times architecture.

Then we would find, metaphorically speaking, for every extant Chinese brick an extant Greco temple, for every extant Chinese temple an extant Greco-Roman quarter, and for every extant Chinese quarter five Greco-Roman cities. Not that I know of extant Chinese temples and towns from the Han period.

We would find extant Roman stone bridges,
extant Roman lighthouses,
extant Roman churches,
extant Roman temples,
extant Roman palaces,
extant Roman city walls,
extant Roman multi-stored appartment buildings,
extant Roman tunnels,
extant Roman aqueducts,
extant Roman harbours,
extant Roman wharves,
extant Roman artificial lakes

Ironically, even the famed Chinese wall was both outdone in terms of length and sophistication by the Roman limes system.


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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 14:50
great stuff absolutely astonishing, it made me realized that neither side is superior to each another, it is embarrasing for me to post a message here with such limited knowledge about both western&eastern arts, i was especially amazed by the european art pieces.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:23

Thanks Chilbudios! Those are awesome, yet no more so than those you've posted on the previous page. I'd have to say I'm most impressed with Caravaggio's work on the human form, but Lorrain's masterpieces of landscape are amazing. This thread is turning out to be a gigantic art museum of West and East, and I'm loving it. Maybe someone should post some Islamic and Indian art as well, since I've seen some great paintings and sculptures from both cultures that are absolutely astonishing.

I guess I'll start off with the Chola-era (9th-13th centuries) Hindu temple of Srirangam. Look at the sculpture work here...
 
 
 
Eric



Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 28-Sep-2006 at 15:34
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:28
so is it true that the ancient chinese had a low regard for masony and that's why they didn't dabble in the stuff?
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:41

Stone and brick masonry was something that was experimented with during the Han Dynasty (although rammed earth walls, guard towers, and gate houses which were arguably as strong as concrete, remained the hallmark of defenses), but Chinese did not start converting a lot of buildings to stone and brick until the Northern Wei Period, the Sui Period, and definitely by the Tang period a lot more buildings were being made out of stone and brick. By the Ming Dynasty, brick and stone masonry were pretty much the standard for constructing walls and buildings, and continued on into the Qing period. When it came to crafting sculptures, this wasn't as highly regarded since it wasn't one of the main four practices of the literati, which was to be able to construct decent poetry, to paint, to write proficient caligraphy, and to be able to play the Chinese zither (the guqin) muscial instrument. These were the four pasttimes of a scholar-official/literati. This is not to say that sculpting wasn't held in high esteem, as seen through earlier pics I've posted with Buddhist art and the like. Also, the Chinese were fond of sculpting mythological creatures out of stone or even casting them as bronze statues in palaces and courtyards, and it was customary to have fu dog statues (they sort of look like lions) at the gate of one's home as a sign of good fortune and luck against supernatural ills. Also, the Chinese were fond of erecting statues of important figures, like Emperors or prominent generals.

Eric

Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 28-Sep-2006 at 15:46
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:46

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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:47
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

Stone and brick masonry was something that was experimented with during the Han Dynasty (although rammed earth walls, guard towers, and gate houses which were arguably as strong as concrete, remained the hallmark of defenses), but Chinese did not start converting a lot of buildings to stone and brick until the Northern Wei Period, the Sui Period, and definitely by the Tang period a lot more buildings were being made out of stone and brick. By the Ming Dynasty, brick and stone masonry were pretty much the standard for constructing walls and buildings, and continued on into the Qing period. When it came to crafting sculptures, this wasn't as highly regarded since it wasn't one of the main four practices of the literati, which was to be able to construct decent poetry, to paint, to write proficient caligraphy, and to be able to play the Chinese zither (the guqin) muscial instrument. These were the four pasttimes of a scholar-official/literati. This is not to say that sculpting wasn't held in high esteem, as seen through earlier pics I've posted with Buddhist art and the like. Also, the Chinese were fond of sculpting mythological creatures out of stone or even casting them as bronze statues in palaces and courtyards, and it was customary to have fu dog statues (they sort of look like lions) at the gate of one's home as a sign of good fortune and luck against supernatural ills. Also, the Chinese were fond of erecting statues of important figures, like Emperors or prominent generals.

Eric
okay, somewhere back a poster stated this was a 'lowly' art form and wasn't given much attention.
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:57

You're not going to find too many examples of Islamic painting or sculpture due to the religious ban on idolatry. They did have some beautiful achievements in architecture and calligraphy however.

Since Chilbudios has posted mostly European art from the Renaissance onwards, when Europe had started to pull ahead, I've decided to post some images of European art before that, when Europe was supposedly barbaric...

The Sainte Chapelle (Paris early 13th century)

The Book of Kells (8th century Ireland)

Hagia Sophia church (Constantinople, 6th century)

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