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Why was Europe First?

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why was Europe First?
    Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 08:08
Longer = better?
Then the best arthetecture should be tombs.
 
Luster? Are speaking that from a "scholarly" point of view, or just out of pure bias? Have you ever been to a traditional Chinese villa or palace?
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 08:55
The bigger is not the better. At least not all the times. The photos are really amazing but due to their size. Only for that point of view. There nothing difficult details to that huge sculptures in the previous photos. Once again i say that are fubulus but not something extraordinary comparing with ancient Greeks and Romans and of course later Europeans. In order take a small clue for which civilizations have made greater things as far as constructions concerened lets count the seven wonders of the world. How of that are from easter Asia and how of that none. If we divide in ancient world and modern world then my friends chinese you are going to b disapointed. The ancien world wonders are until Babilona. No chinese. And the modern world is i believe the sinic wall...and the cinic wall. I think is also the Taz Mahal? Anyway. This is quite discouraging for chinese civilization as far as constructions refering.
    

Edited by perikles - 27-Sep-2006 at 08:55
Samos national guard.

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:12

Who made the list of so-called 7 wonders in the world? Are we judging Chinese arthitecture based on a list made by someone who never been outside Hellenistic world?

I can tell you a list of 5 best temple in the world, and they are all from China. But does this list making any validated point? NO! Because whoever made such "best of best list" was severely limited by its world veiw and knowlegede.
 
The artistic values of different momument is open to anyone's comment. However, using the ignorant list (by today's standard) such as "7 wonders of the world"  to denounce the achievement of entire civilization.. that, my Greek friend, is bias.


Edited by Dream208 - 27-Sep-2006 at 11:02
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:36
wow, can the chinese nationalists concede that perhaps China doesn't embody every single zenith of excellence in civilization?  I guess not.
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:40
Originally posted by Chilbudios

You don't have to visit Florence or Venice. Many Italian houses in small villages (at least in Tuscany or Liguria, regions I've visited) have those fine specific architectural elements of the Mediteranean world, of Italy, of Western Christian culture.

I just picked those ones because they can be googled.

here's a typical scene in Belgium



notice how you don't have everyone standing around and taking pictures, while lining up for tickets to get in?  that's because beautiful architecture like this is everywhere, part of everyday life.


Edited by Hrothgar - 27-Sep-2006 at 10:41
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:45
Originally posted by Dream208

Longer = better?
Then the best arthetecture should be tombs.


indeed it is.  The great pyramid of giza
 
Originally posted by Dream208

Luster? Are speaking that from a "scholarly" point of view, or just out of pure bias? Have you ever been to a traditional Chinese villa or palace?


Yes I have.  They were nice, but don't hold a candle to the traditional cathedrals of say, Reims.

wood rots and burns, stone doesn't, which according to another poster is why there isn't more evidence left of chinese architecture.


Edited by Hrothgar - 27-Sep-2006 at 11:09
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:54
while the buddha statue is impressive in its scale, is there any chinese equivalent to a beautiful city like Prague, Rome, Paris, etc?  Where the density of statues, monuments, arches, mausoleums, etc. that are so abundant that many people walk by without noticing?

On the contrary I've noticed that in China and in Asia, a lot of old permament structures are relegated to 'heritage status'
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by Hrothgar

wow, can the chinese nationalists concede that perhaps China doesn't embody every single zenith of excellence in civilization?  I guess not.


You learn fast young padawan Wink
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:03

Obviously everyone's taking sides here (which seems silly to me, being an American with no history, where my only history of ancient and medieval times could be looking to the Native Americans who embodied the continent before my European ancestors, and therefore I have little pride base). However, I'm loving the results of both sides, and the listing of the strength-points of West and East. I'm surprised none of our Western friends have said something along the lines of "Well, Ramses the Great built huge realistic statues out of the cliffside at Abu Simbel that are just as grandeur, and much older than the Chinese Buddha sculpture!" Lol. Which would be true, but then again, the Chinese knew of only the Arab Egyptians they traded with, and didn't know who the ancient Egyptians were until the Early Modern Age. So to the Chinese, building of such an enormous statue in the 8th century would seem like a new sort of feat.

 
Hrothgar, that scene in Belgium you posted was absolutely beautiful. But how old are all those buildings dated, do you think? Since we are comparing strictly ancient, medieval, and Renaissance era achievements between East and West. I'd say the more Gothic-looking Cathedral in the background is the oldest compared to the bell tower and the church in the foreground. Nice pic, though.
 
When it came to height, from the years 1311 until 1549, no other church or cathedral in Europe could rival the Lincoln Cathedral in England (160 meters tall, or 525 feet), the first Cathedral or any structure in Europe to tower over the Great Pyramid at Giza in Egypt (146 meters tall, or 481 feet). The Lincoln Cathedral was surpassed in 1549 by the St. Olav Tallinn in Estonia.
 
 
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 27-Sep-2006 at 14:28
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:19
while the buddha statue is impressive in its scale
Talking of statues, I haven't seen yet a Chinese traditional sculpture to fairly shape a human body. Which are the Chinese equivalents of the Renaissance or Baroque statues? They are not necessarily large, rather than (leaving the style aside) well shaped humans and more than that, scenes.
When I'm imagining Galatea's myth I can't think of Chinese statues, only European.


Edited by Chilbudios - 27-Sep-2006 at 14:20
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  Quote Sirona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:37
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Talking of statues, I haven't seen yet a Chinese traditional sculpture to fairly shape a human body. Which are the Chinese equivalents of the Renaissance or Baroque statues? They are not necessarily large, rather than (leaving the style aside) well shaped humans and more than that, scenes.
When I'm imagining Galatea's myth I can't think of Chinese statues, only European.


We can't judge a completely different culture by European cultural standards, the Renaissance, was the "rebirth" of Antiqiuity (even debatable in itself, but let's not get into it) In the East, there was no such historical/cultural context. Also, naturalism being the high point of art is another Western concept, relevant to Classical period and also to the Renaissance and Neo-Classicism. Naturalism was important to Ancient art because antiqiuity had a human-centered world view ("man as the measure of everything") and the Humanists of Early Modern Europe were influenced directly by them.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:39
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Talking of statues, I haven't seen yet a Chinese traditional sculpture to fairly shape a human body. Which are the Chinese equivalents of the Renaissance or Baroque statues? They are not necessarily large, rather than (leaving the style aside) well shaped humans and more than that, scenes.
When I'm imagining Galatea's myth I can't think of Chinese statues, only European.
 
Sure thing, Chilbudios...
 
Chinese Statues and Sculptures,
with periods names listed
 
 
Above: The Emperor Qin Shihuang's Terracotta Army, which includes 8,099 terracotta figures, all of which were completed by 210 BC
 
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
 
The Mogao Caves at Dunhuang, with statues and murals ranging from the 4th to 14th centuries
 
"The Mogao Caves are manmade. According to historical records, construction began in 366, when a monk [Lezun] of high moral integrity wandered westward with the help of a walking stick. As he arrived at Mingsha Mountain, he saw 1,000 Buddhas shining before his eyes. Inspired by this vision, he dug the first cave there. Construction of the caves lasted for 1,500 years, through ten Chinese feudal dynasties."
 
 
There's plenty more, hold on,
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 27-Sep-2006 at 14:45
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:55

Here's some more pics of Chinese art in general...

 
First up, the Yongle Palace Murals in the early 14th century
 
IPB ImageIPB Image
 
 
Here's some pics below from the Lingyan Temple of the Song Dynasty (960 - 1279 AD), and some statues therein...
 
IPB Image
 
And another set of impressive statues from the Confucian Shrine in Beijing, built originally during the Yuan Dynasty circa 1302 AD, and the temple itself rebuilt in 1411 AD, during the reign of Emperor Yongle.

IPB Image
 
 
The Dazu Rock-Carvings, 7th to 12th centuries AD
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 27-Sep-2006 at 15:56
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 15:25
Originally posted by Sirona

We can't judge a completely different culture by European cultural standards, the Renaissance, was the "rebirth" of Antiqiuity (even debatable in itself, but let's not get into it) In the East, there was no such historical/cultural context. Also, naturalism being the high point of art is another Western concept, relevant to Classical period and also to the Renaissance and Neo-Classicism. Naturalism was important to Ancient art because antiqiuity had a human-centered world view ("man as the measure of everything") and the Humanists of Early Modern Europe were influenced directly by them.
But this is not a cultural standard, this is anatomy and proper representation (as I asked about human statues).
I value very much Picasso (I know, a painter, but it is the perfect example for what I'm saying), but before he developed his cubist perspectives he had his blue and red periods where he proven his ability to properly transmit reality. I understand his cubism as style, I value the symbols at full value (fully intended) because I know he could have done it otherwise if he wished to.
I am not judging Chinese style on some subjective considerations of aesthetics, style (I don't expect them to act consistently as some Pygmalions), I just want a shred of evidence from Chinese tradition for they are able to fairly represent a human. Because Western art not only copied Graeco-Roman models, but created an own "science" of representing humans, animals and other objects. It involves empyrical medicine, geometry and several other disciplines which were developed as well in the same period (and not only in Europe). And it provides me great confidence in their understanding and their perceptions because they can express accordingly.
And last but not at least, I'm not buying the "human-centered world view" as a cause. Chinese art offers quite a large number of human representations to a reasonable similitude (far beyond a rupestral drawing or a neolithic sculpture, to attempt to provide a scale) as Preobrazhenskoe just shown above. But it's hard to say "well, this is just their style" and think not of clumsiness and struggle to find out how to reflect better (but at the same time with a personal touch) the reality. There is progress in Chinese scultpture, there is progress in Chinese painting. So there's not a lack of interest.
 
Sure thing, Chilbudios...
There's plenty more, hold on
  Put any of those statues near Michelangelo's David (or even Bernini's). And these are not the most impressive ones you can find, though Michelangelo's is among most famous.
Which one of them strikes you as being alive?
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 15:44
Sculpture:
 
Michelangelo (16th century):
 
 
 
Painting:
 
Caravaggio (end of 16th century - beginning of 17th):
 
 
 
Velasquez (17th century):
 
 
 
etc.
 
 
 
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 16:21

Yes, Chilbudios, you're absolutely right in thinking Europe surpassed China in the Renaissance era when it came to representing the pristine human form through sculpture and painting. The Chinese were more apt to representing the mythical and the hazy-realistic in sculpture and paintings. In my own opinion, Renaissance artists in Europe blew their Chinese contemporaries out of the water, so to speak, but before the European Renaissance (and during), landscape art of the Five Dynasties, Song, Yuan, and Ming eras were unsurpassed in brilliance, possibly the greatest strong point of Chinese art.

 
"Man herding a horse," by Han Gan (lived 706 - 783) of the Tang Dynasty
 
 
by Dong Yuan, a painter in the Five Dynasties period (907 - 960 AD)
 
 
 

 "Early Spring," by Guo Xi, 1072 AD


 
A Scholar in His Study
Unknown Artist, Song Dynasty (960 - 1279 AD)
 
 
By Li Gong-lin.  There are 1286 horses tended by 143 men. Northern Song period (960-1126)
 
Luohan launderingRock Bridge at Tiantai Mountain
 
This is a very rare-preserved painting known as the Luohan Laundering, painted in 1178 AD by Ling Tinggui of the Southern Song Dynasty. It was transported to a monastery of Daitokuji in Kyoto, Japan during the 13th century, and was passed on even later to the American Charles Lang Freer in 1902. The one on the right is called Rock Bridge at Tiantai Mountain, painted by Zhou Jichang, a contemporary of Ling, in 1178 AD, and is also a painting that was purchased by Charles Lang Freer, donated to the Smithsonian Institution under the Freer Gallery
 
 
Portrait of Kublai Khan (reigned as Emperor of the Chinese Yuan Dynasty from 1271 - 1294), this painting commissioned during his reign, alongside Genghis' portrait that we see today...
 
Six Groups of LuohanBust of Bodhidharma
 
Here's another scroll painting owned now by Charles Lang Freer, called the Six Groups of Luohan, painted in the late Yuan period of the 14th century. The picture on the right also comes from the late Yuan period in the 14th century, Bust of Bodhidharma, painted on silk, another gift of Charles Lang Freer gallery...

 
Lofty Mount Lu by Shen Zhou (1427 - 1509), and another painting on the right by him...
 
"Spring Morning in the Han Palace" by Qiu Ying (1494 - 1552) and here's another by Qiu Ying below...
 

 
 
Portrait of Kong Fuzi, Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644)
 
Lady Under a Gnarled Pine Tree
 
Lady Under a Gnarled Pine Tree, 16th century
 
The Peach Festival of the Queen Mother of the West
 
The Peach Festival of the Queen Mother of the West, 17th century
 
 
Portions of the 11 meter handscroll of the Qing Ming Festival, original painting of the medieval Song Dynasty, this is a copy during the Qing period 
 
 
By Yang Zuo, a painter in Qing Dynasty, Qianlong Period (late 18th century)
 
Portrait of Hongyan, Prince Guo (1733-1765)
 
Here's an interesting handscroll painting on silk, a portrait of Hongyan, Prince Guo, painted in the mid 18th century. Notice the obvious European influence in the wall designs surrounding the window. This is actually a portrait of Hongyan visiting the palace of Yuanmingyuan, an imperial villa built with Italian flavor by Hongyan's half brother, the Qianlong Emperor (reigned 173696). However, this realistic portrait style of seated monarch and regal ensignias is nothing new to the 18th century for the Chinese, as exemplified by portraits of realistically-painted Chinese emperors stemming back to the Tang Dynasty (the Han era depictions were ok, but no as impressive).
 
My own personal conclusion (yours may differ): no other culture in its time surpassed the humanistic realism and pristine human form in art portrayed by Renaissance Europe, while no other culture in its time surpassed the realism, depth, detail, and magninity of Chinese landscape art from the 10th to 18th centuries
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 27-Sep-2006 at 17:59
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by Hrothgar

wow, can the chinese nationalists concede that perhaps China doesn't embody every single zenith of excellence in civilization?  I guess not.
 

you should not value eastern asian art through european standard, it is rediculars and heavily biased, also while you are critisizing these who values chinese art, you should consider the following points:

1. chinese sculptures are not as good as the europeans, that's because the mid&upper class value stone carving as a low job, mid&upper class enjoy painting, writing, music, and Go playing.
 
2. when you go to the forbidden city, which didn't impress you, that's because most part of the forbidden city were restricted, and most of the valuable art piece and relics, were either have been taken by nationalist government(taiwan), taken by Japnease,  taken by europeans, or distroyed due to war. so the art pieces and relics you see nowadys in China Don t  even belong to second class.
 
3. check the date of the buidings& art pieces above, you'll see the difference.
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 17:53
how readily available are those sculptures to the public?

Again, they are 'heritage status', meaning they either exist in museum or are behind velvet ropes because they are so scarce.

One simply cannot compare the quality and quantity of European sculpture/architecture with Chinese.  Heck, I lived in Lausanne for a year and that small city in Switzerland alone has more architectural heritage than displayed in all of Beijing.

Simply put, Europeans for whatever reason, were much more prolific in this human venture.  Perhaps it was the patronage system, or a greater appreciation of art.  There's nary a town or city in Europe that doesn't have a beautiful fountain, city square, arch, or limestone/marble building.

Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

Originally posted by Chilbudios

Talking of statues, I haven't seen yet a Chinese traditional sculpture to fairly shape a human body. Which are the Chinese equivalents of the Renaissance or Baroque statues? They are not necessarily large, rather than (leaving the style aside) well shaped humans and more than that, scenes.
When I'm imagining Galatea's myth I can't think of Chinese statues, only European.
 
Sure thing, Chilbudios...
 
Chinese Statues and Sculptures,
with periods names listed
 
 
Above: The Emperor Qin Shihuang's Terracotta Army, which includes 8,099 terracotta figures, all of which were completed by 210 BC
 
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
IPB Image
 
The Mogao Caves at Dunhuang, with statues and murals ranging from the 4th to 14th centuries
 
"The Mogao Caves are manmade. According to historical records, construction began in 366, when a monk [Lezun] of high moral integrity wandered westward with the help of a walking stick. As he arrived at Mingsha Mountain, he saw 1,000 Buddhas shining before his eyes. Inspired by this vision, he dug the first cave there. Construction of the caves lasted for 1,500 years, through ten Chinese feudal dynasties."
 
 
There's plenty more, hold on,
 
Eric
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:01
Hrothgar, you are unimpressed with the medieval/Renaissance era Chinese paintings I posted above? Regardless, here's more gems of art...
 
The Hall of Scenic Beauty The Hall of Precious Paintings
 
The Hall of Scenic Beauty, 17th century copy of Qiu Ying's 16th century painting, and the The Hall of Precious Paintings, 17th century copy of Qui Ying's 16th century painting
 
Seated LuohanA Basket of Flowers
  
On the left: the Seated Luohan, 16th century, and on the right A Basket of Flowers, also 16th century
 
A Bird hovering over blossoming branchesTwo crested birds on a branch; autumn leaves
 
A Bird Hovering Over Blossoming Branches, 17th century, as well as Two Crested Birds on a Branch, Autumn Leaves, 17th century 
 
Anyways, more can be found at http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/results.cfm?group=Chinese%20Art&start=0, which includes not only paintings, but pottery, lacquerware, porcelain, and other arts as well.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 27-Sep-2006 at 18:16
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  Quote Hrothgar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:08
I don't see what the big fuss about Chinese pagodas is, when there are so many beautiful estates and castles in Europe that often you just hiking french country side you can find an abandoned one.  Here's what a quick google example brings up.

My opinion, architecture was much more celebrated in the west than in the east.











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