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Creten and Mycecnean ethnicity

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creten and Mycecnean ethnicity
    Posted: 13-Oct-2013 at 12:08
May i ask you something?Is it Den Brown or Than Brown?Regards.
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2013 at 18:18
Please explain your post. Also why do you say that the ancient Greeks came from Egypt?
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2013 at 00:40

You have two words Than&Den that sound the same and use different letters(symbols) above.

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  Quote Bilge Chanyu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2013 at 05:38

Hi guys

I read the book of some Turkish archaeologist and historians. One of them is Arif Müfid Mansel. In his book, he claims that the origin of people of Crete is not clear but probably they were from Anatolia. The names of Gods and cities with letters "ss" or "nt" give us an idea about their origin. Probably they came to Crete from Caria.



Edited by Bilge Chanyu - 15-Oct-2013 at 04:07
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2013 at 09:56
No ones mentioned the "Ossyrian" culture that inhabited the Med. basin before the sea levels rose and inundated the Med. basin.  They must have gone somewhere.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2013 at 11:48
Originally posted by Don Quixote

The Mycenean people came into the ethnic composition of the Greek people. We cannt separate both, because then what is ging to happen to the Illiad - there the Mycenean people are called "Danaian",  which is commonly translated as "Greek"; Agamemnon, Menelaus etc were Greek. We cannot separate the Myceneans from the Greeks, because whoever came from the North Balkans /if they did so, that is/ mixed with the Myceneans to make the Greek cultural and ethnic homogeneity.

True, the Cretans were Anatolian, but there was also flow from Anatolia in the Balkans; the Thracians most probably had Anatolian origins, etc. The ethnic difference between the Balkans and Anatolia happened only when the Turks came about, before this they were very similar; the DNA shows that too.

If I'm not mistaken these is the same Danaians that some scholars have identified as Iranians.  I know that there is evidence of Iranian loans into Mycenaean and therefore an Iranian presence in Mycenaea.  It could explain why the Perseus who is identified as an ancestor of the Persians is said to have founded Myceneae....
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2013 at 14:39
If you want to trully understand the story of the Aeschylus' Suppliants, and what relations the Danaans have with Egypt... Read here p452

http://books.google.com/books?id=tOgWfjNIxoMC&pg=PT464&dq=origins+of+the+Danaans+myth+egypt&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gUd5UtXrHJLiyAHGgIHQCQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=origins%20of%20the%20Danaans%20myth%20egypt&f=false




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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2013 at 22:53
The idea that the Bronze Age Minoans  ( beginning c. 2700 BC) themselves came from Anatolia or elsewhere is refuted by a recent genetic study (see link to the paper ).
 
The conclusion of the researchers is that the Minoans were European, developing out of people/cultures that were already for millenia on the island. 
 
That very remote ancestors, the socalled “ Neolithic settlers” , came  from the nearby mainland ( the Peloponnesos/ Anatolia etc.) is a different matter and period. That was 7000 BC or so,  some 4000 years before the Minoan period ( beginning c. 2700 BC). 
 
There was of course contact and cultural exchanging  between the Bronze age Minoans and other cultures.
 
Excerpt  from the DNA study ( december 2012) :
 
 
 
  
A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete
 
Jeffery R. Hughey1, Peristera Paschou2, Petros Drineas3, Donald Mastropaolo4, Dimitra M. Lotakis4,
Patrick A. Navas4, Manolis Michalodimitrakis5, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos6 & George Stamatoyannopoulos6
 
The first advanced Bronze Age civilization of Europe was established by the Minoans about
5,000 years before present. Since Sir Arthur Evans exposed the Minoan civic centre of
Knossos, archaeologists have speculated on the origin of the founders of the civilization.
Evans proposed a North African origin; Cycladic, Balkan, Anatolian and Middle Eastern origins have also been proposed. Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present. Shared haplotypes, principal component and pairwise distance analyses refute the Evans North African hypothesis. Minoans show the strongest relationships with Neolithic and modern European populations and with the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis of an autochthonous development of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island.
 
The most likely origins of these Neolithic settlers  were the nearest coasts, either the Peloponnese or south-western Anatolia. 4–6…...
 
 
 
 
BBC article ( may 2013) for quick reading:
 
 
 
Europe's first advanced civilisation was local in origin and not imported from elsewhere, a study says.
 
" Europe's first advanced civilisation was local in origin and not imported from elsewhere, a study says.
Analysis of DNA from ancient remains on the Greek island of Crete suggests the Minoans were indigenous Europeans, shedding new light on a debate over the provenance of this ancient culture."
 
...
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22527821
 
 
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Edited by Sander - 22-Nov-2013 at 23:11
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2013 at 11:36
Originally posted by Sander

The idea that the Bronze Age Minoans  ( beginning c. 2700 BC) themselves came from Anatolia or elsewhere is refuted by a recent genetic study (see link to the paper ).
 

???
"The most likely origins of these Neolithic settlers  were the nearest coasts, either the Peloponnese or south-western Anatolia."

Your source don't deny Anatolia, it is about North Africa contact/origin


However that makes me more be confused

first of all it is about mtDNA which means just about maternal roots and Y-DNA and mtDNA result can be different. For example, J haplogroup in Y-DNA and mtDNA knows as Near Asiatic-Caucausic

in J (Y-DNA)
Turkey has higher  percent then England so We can say that Turkey is more Near Asiatic

but, in J (mtDNa)
England has higher percent then Turkey so England is more Near Asiatic

secondly it says
"The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroupsH (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%)."

and

" None of the Minoans carried the characteristic African mtDNA haplotypes of the L haplogroup"

Yes, major group in North Africa is L
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-L-map.png


On the other hand, group H is also high in old local North African Tribes too 

Libyan Tuareg 61
Tuareg (West Sahel) 23.3
Berbers (Morocco) 20.2

Today in Europe it is max 20-30 percent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28mtDNA%29

so, it is not clear research for me


Edited by Ollios - 23-Nov-2013 at 11:37
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2013 at 22:18
The same paper that Sanders quoted also says that:
"... As it has been proposed for the other Neolithic European populations21, 22, 23, the most likely origin of the Cretan Neolithic settlers was Anatolia and the Middle East4, 7, 9, 10, 11. Given that the timing of the first Neolithic inhabitants to reach Crete 9,000 YBP coincides with the migration of Neolithic farmers out of Anatolia3, it is highly probable that the same ancestral population that spread to Europe, also spread to Crete and contributed to the founding of the early Minoan civilization. It has been suggested24 that in addition to agricultural methods, the Anatolian farmers also brought with them the Indo-European language25, 26. The current prevailing hypothesis is that the Minoan language was unrelated to the Indo-European family. Alternatively, as suggested by Renfrew5, Proto-Minoan was one of the branches derived from the Proto-Indo-European language about 9,000 YBP..."
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html

Or as Stephalonoulus stated it:

"...“About 9,000 years ago,” he noted, “there was an extensive migration of Neolithic humans from the regions of Anatolia that today comprise parts of Turkey and the Middle East. At the same time, the first Neolithic inhabitants reached Crete.”

“Our mitochondrial DNA analysis shows that the Minoan’s strongest genetic relationships are with these Neolithic humans, as well as with ancient and modern Europeans,” he explained.

“These results suggest the Minoan civilization arose 5,000 years ago in Crete from an ancestral Neolithic population that had arrived in the region about 4,000 years earlier,” he said. “Our data suggest that the Neolithic population that gave rise to the Minoans also migrated into Europe and gave rise to modern European peoples.”..."
http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/05/14/dna-analysis-unearths-origins-of-minoans-the-first-major-european-civilization/

So, a stream of Neolithic humans from Anatolia went both in Europe and Crete. That the Neolithic/agricultural Revolution in Europe happened after a migration from people from Anatolia is something I read and posted before.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2013 at 16:38
Originally posted by Don Quixote

So, a stream of Neolithic humans from Anatolia went both in Europe and Crete. That the Neolithic/agricultural Revolution in Europe happened after a migration from people from Anatolia is something I read and posted before.


but Sander had not read own sources well
"The idea that the Bronze Age Minoans  ( beginning c. 2700 BC) themselves came from Anatolia or elsewhere is refuted by a recent genetic study (see link to the paper ).
 
The conclusion of the researchers is that the Minoans were European, developing out of people/cultures that were already for millenia on the island. "

his/her speech is not same with you Don

The source says that just looking one gender and making very general statement

*First of all, I said before if we looking mt-DNA English people are more Near Asiatic then Turkish people(According to J-mtDNA %), so it is same.

*About haplogroup H

-Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup in Europe.[6] Haplogroup H is found in approximately 41% of native Europeans"

-The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroupsH (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%).

-but Libyan Tuareg 61%, are they children of European like Alexander's in Afhganistan?

*What about Y-DNA

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/early_bronze_age_europe.gif

Asia J and African E
http://www.waa.ox.ac.uk/XDB/images/world/tours/europe-map5.jpg
and this period Crete is still same however Mycenaean have already turned into an indo-european so they had mostly R



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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2013 at 22:54
About the Lybian Tuaregs - I think that they are a result of a Paleolithic influx from Anatolia to North Africa.
"...Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa. ...""...All estimates of population divergence between the North Africans and the European/Near Eastern samples predate the Holocene...."
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397

Yes, this is what the source says, but it also says that the said Neolithic European population itself migrated from Anatolia.
"...Our results strongly suggest that the principal matrilineal genetic relationships of the Minoans are with Neolithic, ancient and modern European populations. Such findings are in support of the hypothesis of an autochthonous origin of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island4, 13. As it has been proposed for the other Neolithic European populations21, 22, 23, the most likely origin of the Cretan Neolithic settlers was Anatolia and the Middle East4, 7, 9, 10, 11. Given that the timing of the first Neolithic inhabitants to reach Crete 9,000 YBP coincides with the migration of Neolithic farmers out of Anatolia3, it is highly probable that the same ancestral population that spread to Europe, also spread to Crete and contributed to the founding of the early Minoan civilization. It has been suggested24 that in addition to agricultural methods, the Anatolian farmers also brought with them the Indo-European language25, 26...."
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html

Edited by Don Quixote - 25-Nov-2013 at 23:00
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 23:19
Originally posted by Sander

 The Neoltic culture/settlers and the Minoan culture/peoples are different periods.

 


They are. However, if the Minoans are from the same stock that caused the Neolithic Revolution, ultimately this wave came from Anatolia. This line is a part of the source you quoted.
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 23:23
The Neolithic settlers and the Minoans represent different cultures/people from different periods.
 
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Sander

The idea that the Bronze Age Minoans  ( beginning c. 2700 BC) themselves came from Anatolia or elsewhere is refuted by a recent genetic study (see link to the paper ).
 

???
"The most likely origins of these Neolithic settlers  were the nearest coasts, either the Peloponnese or south-western Anatolia."

Your source don't deny Anatolia, it is about North Africa contact/origin
.....
 
 

Well. The researchers don't refute/argue against the fact that the Neolithic settlers came from the coasts of Greece or Anatolia but they do refute that the Bronze Age Minoans came from there somewhere around the 3th millenium to start up the whole thing. That is after all what some old theories ( Evans for example ) argued. The researchers have found no genetic evidence for that in their study.  
 
It's widely accepted that Crete was settled some 8000-9000 years ago by the Neolithic settlers. They became the indigenous people. If the Minoans descent ultimately from the Neolitic settlers of Crete as the researchers argue ( based on their data ) then the  Minoans proper / the direct founders of the Minoan culture were indigenous people around c. 3000 BC and not recent immigrants as some argued.  If the Minoan culture/people was developed by people with ancestors already for millenia on the island then is to be considered  an "autochthonous development" as the paper says.  
As a sidenote: If  having very remote ancestors entering the region millenia ago makes a people not indigenous then practically all peoples in Eurasia and elsewhere are not to be considered indigenous/ autochtonous. Even the socalled indigenous Maya and Australian aboriginals have very remote ancestors who entered America and Australia millenia ago from outside.
 
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Edited by Sander - 26-Nov-2013 at 23:40
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 23:27
On the East Coast of N. America there was the Megalithic Culture, 10,000 bce to approx 3,000 bce. They had been gone for roughly 1,000 years before the Lenni.  We don't know who they were, or where they came from, or where they went. Yet, we always think of the Amerindians as the original folks. In fact both were from "the outside".
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 23:28
Sanders, I agree with your last post.
BTW, the ingenuity issue doesn't exist for me - I never argued that the Minoans were not indigenous to Crete. I'm rather interested in the human migrations along the timeline and across the globe, from pure curiosity.

Edited by Don Quixote - 26-Nov-2013 at 23:31
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 23:52
Whyizit?  Whenever I mention a Megalithic culture in the Americas, everyone goes mum and posts around me.  No challenge, nada.
 
I can't imagine this crew just being polite.ConfusedTongue
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  Quote reitia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2014 at 02:19
Hello,

The ancient Cretans (Minoans) were a pre-Hellenic nation, probably related ethnically to the Etruscans and the Shardana (one of the Sea Peoples, an ancient population of Sardinia). The Mycenaeans were Indo-Europeans who spoke an archaic form of the Greek language. Mycenaean religion derived in a large part from the Minoan mother-goddess cult.
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