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szekler in romania
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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: szekler in romania
    Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 17:27
Bruno, can you tell me the title of the page where you copied your material omitting the reference?
Also can you tell me what "Gesta Hungarum" means and what "Gesta Hungarorum" means? Thank you. (damn' I haven't realized something LOL Anyway it's fun and I'll disclose it later)
After all you wrote "Chronicon of Anonymi" (typo corrected) as once you wrote about duke Almum. You seem to have a constant issue with Latin declensions Wink
 
Also can you quote me to support your ill-directed accusation: will never admit that a "punctus" is like a comma separating "Blachii" from "ac pastores romanorum": the meaning is the same. Moreover I explained a "punctus" can replace a comma (or a semi-colon or a full-stop, please read again in case you have missed). Perhaps you lost the track of the discussion. But that doesn't give you an excuse to persist in insulting and provoking me. After all you started the quarrel, you called me "little Adolf" for requesting to come back at the topic and now you keep the same aggressive line (though only to me the accusations were brought): should I and anyone else reading this thread conclude you take it as a freedom of yours in this thread to insult me whenever you feel like?
Perhaps our conflict was not accident, only that I was the first person to disagree with you. Be decent or be gone!


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2006 at 17:42
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 17:55
"Be decent or be gone".....that is an order that shows an arrogance that is unbelievable.      Maria d., I am going to follow your advise and ignore this forumer who will never admit to be mistaken, even when it is totally clear the evidence (like with "Hungarum" and "Hungarorum"). 
This is a friendly forum, as Decebal wrote.
Again, thank you for your former request.  Bruno  Smile

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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 18:10
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Cezar, I was there. But I couldn't feel who or where were the Szeklers 1000 years ago. Smile
We can write about our limited and anecdotic experiences in Szekelyland (or Bihor or any place you consider relevant), but it's a whole different side of the discussion, don't you think?
 
Bihor, what has it got to to with the Szeklersl (Secui) except of the Secuieni?
 
Have you ever been to Odorheiu Săcuiesc? Or some other places around? They're so far rom Bihor, even nowdays you couldn't get there too fast there are no proper roads in Romania to make a swift transit from Bihor to Harghita (unless you own a helicopter or something like that 'cause there are no landing strips for planes thereEvil Smile!
 
*Dacă ştii romneşte, de ce nu spui aşa? Poate ştii şi ungureşte şi n condiţiile ăstea putem avea un interpret care nu aparţine nici "lor " nici "nouă".
**Apropo - să ştii că nu sunt naţionalist.
 
***For the other forumers: since this is a topic that may start some flame wars I just thought of me to be the "starter" of that kind of war in a hilarious way. Don't take us seriously, we're just trying to have some fun on the net (at least that's what I do - or maybe that's what I'm trying to show that I'm doing, I'm not quite sure myself if I take it seriously or notConfused - please be kindCry)
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 18:27

Bruno there are several things you might consider:

- as long as you insult me I can't be friendly to you. It's hypocritical to demand such a thing. There were calls to stop it, you ignored them all.
- if you want to talk to Maria d. you can write her a personal message
- why would you write a new message where you say nothing (you have previously called me arrogant, you have previously praised Decebal, you have previously asserted the invulnerability of your evidences: the only new thing is your announcement you ignore me: why don't you just do it?) ?
 
And now, since you won't reply anymore here let me issue the funny and at the same time sad thing. It all started from a grammar nitpick and my mistake was an erroneous assumption. Most English (and not only) translations give the title of GH - "the deeds of the Hungarians" (http://www.amazon.ca/Gesta-Hungarorum-Hungarians-Simon-Kezai/dp/9639116319). The Latin word for Hungarian (fellow) is Hungarus, a 2nd declension noun. Therefore I took your "Hungarum" as being about Hungarians and refered to this noun in order to fetch the declension and the correct translation and form. I found it funny to be mentioned as though waving Latin documents and translation you previously hinted to be quite insensitive about declensions and sadly it was true, as even now you couldn't counterargue or correct me with the true meaning of your quoted title.
So the fun was about the meaning of "Hungarum" which I previously missed based on that assumption. And the meaning gets clear if one knows some bits of history and encountered "Bulgarum", "Scytharum", etc., ultimately derived words but which in time gain an own adjectival value. "Hungarum" therefore means "Hungarian" as adjective, not as noun. "Gesta Hungarum" is therefore "Hungarian Gesta" while "Gesta Hungarorum" is the "Gesta of the Hungarians". I hope next time someone else but me can figure out my mistakes Smile
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 18:39
Cezar, I was in Szekelyfold and experienced the area in various circumstances: school summer camps (Homorod), Szekler or mixed Szekler -Romanian social events - as weddings (Tarnaveni, Sangeorgiu de Padure, Tg. Mures) or random journeys for tourism or other purposes (Sf. Gheorghe, Tg. Mures, Zizin and surrounding area- though in Brasov county it has a Szekler minority, Sighisoara and surrounding area and perhaps other I don't remember right now).
It was a very interesting food festival some days (few weeks? don't remember the exact date) ago at Praid, maybe one year I can get there.
 
In Hungarian I only know few words. Romanian I prefer not to talk on an English forum Smile Write me a private message if you want to continue the discussion in Romanian.


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2006 at 18:46
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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 18:57
Originally posted by Chilbudios

........Therefore I took your "Hungarum" as being about Hungarians and refered to this noun in order to fetch the declension and the correct translation and form. I found it funny to be mentioned as though waving Latin documents and translation you previously hinted to be quite insensitive about declensions and sadly it was true, as even now you couldn't counterargue or correct me with the true meaning of your quoted title.
So the fun was about the meaning of "Hungarum" which I previously missed based on that assumption. And the meaning gets clear if one knows some bits of history and encountered "Bulgarum", "Scytharum", etc., ultimately derived words but which in time gain an own adjectival value. "Hungarum" therefore means "Hungarian" as adjective, not as noun. "Gesta Hungarum" is therefore "Hungarian Gesta" while "Gesta Hungarorum" is the "Gesta of the Hungarians". I hope next time someone else but me can figure out my mistakes Smile
 
Please,Chilbudios, can you explain better in plain english....what you write it is a bit "confusing".  Thanks.
 
By the way, Bruno, how is going the writing of your new book on the Vlachs?
Maria d.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:00
To Bruno and Chiblbudios.
Stop arguing and be rude guys! How about setlling this over a pint?. If you two are going to get on eachother throats about a comma or whatever this is not a forum this is a warjunkies gathering, I'll say it at least. Drop the "I know better ", line guys, just come to your senses! B thinks of something C thinks of something else, what's wrong with  it? Are you on the edge of geting to eachothers throat just because ... what?
Now, if you really want a show down I could arrnge it for you both to get into  Odorheiu Săcuiesc somekind of arena and then we'll have some fun:
  • "Why are they fighting for?"
  • "Don't know, something 's got to do with Latin"
  • "Latin!?!?! is there something about the Romanians?"
  • "No, it's about Latin grammar."
  • "Really? Is that supposed to mean something  to us?"
  • "Not really. It's about those guys from Pannonia"
  • "What guys from Pannonia?"
  • "I don't know"
  • "Nor do I"
  • "So what are they fighting for?"
  • "Does it really matters as long as the show is going on?"
  • "No, as a matter of fact. Let them bleed themselves to death"
  • "That bad?"
  • "Well, not quite that bat but the sound of it was fulminant, don't you think so?......

Should I make an end to this story or is it necessary to make some spiritism magic and call for master Will SKSP to end up this charade?
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:02
Maria, in short "Gesta Hungarum" means "the Hungarian Gesta", while "Gesta Hungarorum" means "the Gesta of the Hungarians", of course, both meaningful titles. A "Gesta" is a narrative praising some fragments of a heroic past of some people (often translated into English as "the deeds of ... ")
 
All the other details were just grammar games Smile


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2006 at 19:03
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 21:13
My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile

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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:07
Originally posted by brunodam

My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile
 
It is fascinating, Bruno, but nearly impossible.
At the fall of the Western Roman Empire there were two roman legions stationed in Pannonia:
Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
 
There was until 117 AD even the Legio XV "Apollinaris", stationed at Aquincum (Buda). One interesting fact is that has been recently discovered a cave with paintings/writings in Uzbekistan, that are believed to be from some legionaries of the Legio XIV, brought there by the Parthians as frontier guards. We have to remember that the Avars moved from central Asia in the fourth/fifth century. Can these legionaries be the connection between the Avars and the Szeklers/Siculi?  Maria d.
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by maria d.

Originally posted by brunodam

My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile
 
It is fascinating, Bruno, but nearly impossible.
At the fall of the Western Roman Empire there were two roman legions stationed in Pannonia:
Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
 
There was until 117 AD even the Legio XV "Apollinaris", stationed at Aquincum (Buda). One interesting fact is that has been recently discovered a cave with paintings/writings in Uzbekistan, that are believed to be from some legionaries of the Legio XIV, brought there by the Parthians as frontier guards. We have to remember that the Avars moved from central Asia in the fourth/fifth century. Can these legionaries be the connection between the Avars and the Szeklers/Siculi?  Maria d.
 
Very interesting, Maria d.
Many scholars believe in two Hungarian migrations to Transylvania and to the plains of roman Pannonia, one prior to the main Magyar conquest of the Pannonian Plain in the ninth century.  According to this theory, the Szkely/Szeklers are a Hungarian group that settled in Pannonia during this first migration. This theory (of Gyula Laszlo) states that around 670 a new ethnic group moved into the Carpathian Basin, representing the late-Avar culture with a personal creeper pattern on their belt-clasp.
But the first Avars arrived around 550 AD in Pannonia, less than one century after the end of the western roman empire, and some legionaries of these legions could have remained living in Pannonia. Their descendants could have mixed with the Avars, creating the Siculi.  
But I too believe that it is nearly impossible, as you wrote.  Smile    Bruno

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 02:19

Originally posted by maria d.

Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
and Legio VII Claudia Pia Fidelis (Viminacium) and Legio IV Flavia Felix (Singidunum). Though these two were located in Moesia Superior, they were nevertheless in the Pannonian plain, on the Middle Danube.
However, there were certainly military units in the Late Empire (even legions - Legio V Iovia, Legio VI Herculia, perhaps others as well) stationed in many other fortifications or activating in this area as late documents (Notitia Dignitatum) show. Listing the Roman military units which could possibly leave soldiers in Pannonian plain becomes then a bit more complex.
 
Originally posted by Brunodam

But the first Avars arrived around 550 AD in Pannonia, less than one century after the end of the western roman empire
However, the border in these areas collapsed decades before 476 and similarily the Avars weren't expanding consistently throughout Pannonia as early as the 550s. The gap is larger than one century.
 
 
 
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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:35
Decebal,
you were right when you told Chilbudios that "you have a way of arguing and inserting subtle comments here and there that may cause other members to lose their temper".   Those "subtle comments", with confusing games of words, are damaging the thread and destroying the friendliness of the forum.   Maria d.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:56

I'm glad to see that the conflict seems to have calmed down somewhat. I do have some comments though: I believe my last post on this topic somewhat unfairly singled out Chilbudios, whereas bruno and maria also shared part of the blame. To be honest, I have a hard time coming up with a good synopsys of what happened, since things just seemed to very subtly degenerate, without anyone being obviously at fault. Cezar, thank you for putting things into perspective: this is the first time I see an argument arising over... a comma! However, I would please ask you to refrain from posting in Romanian: although I understand the need in this case, it is against forum rules.

Anyway, I think that all topics relating to Transylvania are ultimately quite sensitive to Romanians and Hungarians alike. Whatever one's personal thoughts and feelings on the subject, one should remember that the odds of actually convincing someone else of one's own opinion (if they don't share it somewhat), in this case are very low. This is a potentially tense topic from the start and we should treat it as such. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a discussion, but it does mean that one should take special care not to be overly aggressive and not to make personal attacks of any kind, however they may be phrased.

As I said before, I don't think that one can place the blame square on one side's shoulders. I don't see the need for any formal warnings, but if this thread (or similar threads on Transylvania) degenerates once more, I may close it down for a few days, until things cool off.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:20
Decebal, can you say why I "share part of the blame"?
I have never make any comments...I have only asked one explanation in a KINDLY WAY about "confusing" grammar games and words....and when I wrote my first post in the topic, I quickly got the "subtle comment" of Chilbudios saying that I am superficial , I need to be more deep and include the Moesian legions,etc.. (while I was obviously only talking about Pannonia,not Moesia and Raetia and Illyria legions...).
All this is disturbing: I AM OUT OF THIS FORUM FOREVER!
Maria d.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:39
II would please ask you to reconsider, maria. The only reason why I said you shared a bit of the blame was that you expressed an opinion that Chilbudios was the only one at fault, and I think that this added even more to the conflict. Now, your share of the "blame" was so minimal that in retrospect I would probably have been better off not even mentioning it at all. It's just that reading the whole thread, one got the impression that there were two camps and you were on bruno's side. In my trying to spread the "blame" around the two camps, I singled you out rather unfairly and I apologize.
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:50
Maria d., can you quote me calling you superficial? Or is the prejudice you approached me and this thread because you came here on behalf of Brunodam? Actually this is a rhetorical question, I don't need the answer.
 
There's a difference between Pannonia as a geographical entity and Pannonia as a Roman province (well, some times it was not even a single province: e.g. Superior and Inferior, the border of provinces changed: e.g. the aforementioned Carnuntum was initially in Noricum and then was included in Pannonia Superior).
Now, if we talk about Avars settling in Pannonia, or Hungarians, or other similar cases, we have in mind the geographical Pannonia (the Pannonian Plain) which is a plain surrounded by mountains and foothills from all sides and which is divided by Danube roughly in two.
A significant part of the Avar or Hungarian archaeological sites cannot even be included in the former territories of Roman provinces, being between Danube and Tisza. Other parts though are in the former territory of Roman provinces, are not in the former territory of Pannonias. Therefore we shouldn't limit the list of military units only to the list of Pannonian legions.
 
Now I contribute to this thread because it is a open forum. I contribute to discuss, to argue, to explain, to learn. If you are bothered by my contributions (because you consider them "confusing" or because you consider them "insulting" ) then just don't read them.


Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Oct-2006 at 11:54
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 12:06

It was not a "comma" that created the problems, Moderator Decebal.

It was the phrase of Chilbudios: "you're wasting the time replying to me on a history thread as I'm wasting my time with you", posted last october 13.    And the other subtle commentaries on my knowledge of Latin, on the Vatican Library and so on, that Chilbudios posted that day.
You see...I have not responded to his last two posts (that show his arrogance and provocations) but he keeps making subtle comments, like the last about the years between the fall of the Western Roman empire and the arrival of the first Avars in Pannonia.
Simply put: I am not used to be treated in such a way!
 
So, I agree with Maria: all this is disturbing....and like her, I will not participate in this Forum anymore! 
 
Bruno
 
 
 
 
 

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 12:47

Brunodam, as I suggested above, you can't deal with counterarguments without getting offended. No one was allowed to doubt Vatican's authority, the correctness of your Latin translations, or your calculation that between Roman collapse and Avar migration in Pannonia was less than a century. And now you openly admitted such things irritated you (along with my indecency to warn about our waste of time, probably then as now you haven't bothered to read the phrase or understand anything of it but "waste of time" and the personal pronouns which together were for you like a lit cigarette in a gas station)

And now you bring an extra evidence: when a moderator accused only me you applauded him; when he accused both of us you threatened to leave!
We all are supposed to do your way or no way at all! Your person, your attitude, your arguments are above the slime we, the mortals, swim in. More worryingly, you threatened to leave as the conflict started to fade away, which raisese big question marks on your lamentation on an unfriendly climate. So far you haven't proven you want one rather a fanclub where everyone should applaud you, ask for autographs or who knows what else. Maria asks about your book and she's friendly, I tell you're wrong and I'm arrogant and subtle.
 
And in the end, not the subtle things bothered you, but the straightaway ones. In fact you haven't noticed more subtle remarks like "though I do not contest your hypothesis" only blunt remarks like "you're wrong asserting this" or "Vatican has no authority".
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 14:40
I hope the administrators read your last posts.
 
You believe that with "games of words" you are going to control other's opinions? May be with teenagers at college, but NOT in a professional world!  Be sure of that.
By the way, what do you mean with "which raisese big question marks on your lamentation on an unfriendly climate. So far you haven't proven you want one rather a fanclub where everyone should applaud you"?
You write in a confuse way....I hope you are not losing your mind....
 
I have had simple discussions with other forumers in other forums, but no one of them goes down to your arrogance.  And Maria d. can confirm this arrogance (your last post to her is full of provocations!)  Since your attack ("losing our time") on october 14 all the topic has been transformed in a continuous "battle": I and Maria tried to revive the topic yesterday with some posts about the Siculi name of the Szeklers...and quickly you showed up to irritate with subtle and provocative commentaries! 
 
I am not used to receive offensive remarks from a person who writes such unbelievable things like "Vatican is not even a scholarly reference in Latin linguistics, philology, epigraphy" or even
"For those who do not know Latin:
In "Gesta Hungarorum", the word "Hungarorum" is in Genitive plural and means "of the Hungarians". If one would mistake and write it, for instance, "Hungarum" then it would mean simply "Hungarian", a noun in Accusative case..."  and when I show the evidence that in Latin hungarorum can be written hungarum, this arrogant person hides his mistake with some "games of words" and confused phrases.
 
As said before, I hope the Administrators read your last posts.
 
Finally, you mistakenly (another mistake!) write that I "threatened to leave": no, Chilbudios, I  WITHDRAW ! Angry
Bruno
 

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