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Consul
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    Posted: 15-Jul-2007 at 02:35
So I have benn in Transilvaniafor one week. I spend there 8 days. I travelled and lived mostly in hungarian/szekler territories.  (in f.e. Szkelyudvarhely, Cskszereda, Kzdivsrhely, Szovta) I visited the Bks-pass and the ...hmmm... Canyon of Torda, the Saint Anna-lake and the Killer-lake:-))etc.  Beautifull places.  (I'll search for the romanian names of the places on my map)
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Posts: 1423 		  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 11:43
Would you like to make some touristic sugestions?

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Hi!
 
Are we open? Thanks! :-)
Back to the szkelys.
In next june I 'll spend there a few days, with a hungarian folklore-dance club.
 
TSZ
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As Decebal has rightly invited all of you to participate with mutual respect, the tendency to over look such kindness has resulted in this thread being temporarily closed.

I haven't had the time or knowledge to add anything on this topic other than cooling down for a brief period and gathering your nerves.

I do have a suggestion though. Try to avoid posting Emoticons after critisizing one another. That is the easiest way to show your sincerity.

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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 16:45
Alright, this is enough. I will close the topic for a few days, to let things cool down.
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 16:27
Originally posted by Brunodam

By the way, what do you mean with "which raisese big question marks on your lamentation on an unfriendly climate. So far you haven't proven you want one rather a fanclub where everyone should applaud you"?
If you said you will leave why do you ask me questions?
LOL
I should correct "raisese" in "raises" and replace "one rather" with "one, but rather" and that's it Tongue
 
I and Maria tried to revive the topic yesterday with some posts about the Siculi name of the Szeklers...and quickly you showed up to irritate with subtle and provocative commentaries! 
The alleged subtle provocation contains no personal pronouns on 2nd person or any nouns to refer you or Maria d. (you can check, I hope you know at least English grammar if Latin you don't). The subjects of the alleged provocation are: military units, territories, fortifications, lists, hegemonies, timespans. Therefore there's no other conclusion than your alleged provocation is a fiction and mentioning it as such you just trolled.
Whether there are any psychological consequences or it's just a low attack triggered by malice, I can't say.
 
and when I show the evidence that in Latin hungarorum can be written hungarum
You haven't brought any evidence. Your lack of knowledge in Latin is bothersome (why do we talk about Latin anyway?). Hungarorum cannot be just written Hungarum, they are different words. I explained what was my mistake - but it was just too "confusing" for some - while my initial tease transformed in a painful exposure: you don't understand Latin, not even the one you wrote. 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Oct-2006 at 16:40
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 14:47
Hi!
 
How do you say "gyerekes" in English? (I understand the hot italian temperament of the Lady, of course)
 
I think it was a great dispute(exept of the latin grammatic lessons. The two or three sentences schould had been enough).
 
Cezar: what does Bihor to do with Szeklers,? They lived there some hundred years ago.
 
By:
 
  TSZ
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 14:40
I hope the administrators read your last posts.
 
You believe that with "games of words" you are going to control other's opinions? May be with teenagers at college, but NOT in a professional world!  Be sure of that.
By the way, what do you mean with "which raisese big question marks on your lamentation on an unfriendly climate. So far you haven't proven you want one rather a fanclub where everyone should applaud you"?
You write in a confuse way....I hope you are not losing your mind....
 
I have had simple discussions with other forumers in other forums, but no one of them goes down to your arrogance.  And Maria d. can confirm this arrogance (your last post to her is full of provocations!)  Since your attack ("losing our time") on october 14 all the topic has been transformed in a continuous "battle": I and Maria tried to revive the topic yesterday with some posts about the Siculi name of the Szeklers...and quickly you showed up to irritate with subtle and provocative commentaries! 
 
I am not used to receive offensive remarks from a person who writes such unbelievable things like "Vatican is not even a scholarly reference in Latin linguistics, philology, epigraphy" or even
"For those who do not know Latin:
In "Gesta Hungarorum", the word "Hungarorum" is in Genitive plural and means "of the Hungarians". If one would mistake and write it, for instance, "Hungarum" then it would mean simply "Hungarian", a noun in Accusative case..."  and when I show the evidence that in Latin hungarorum can be written hungarum, this arrogant person hides his mistake with some "games of words" and confused phrases.
 
As said before, I hope the Administrators read your last posts.
 
Finally, you mistakenly (another mistake!) write that I "threatened to leave": no, Chilbudios, I  WITHDRAW ! Angry
Bruno
 

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 12:47

Brunodam, as I suggested above, you can't deal with counterarguments without getting offended. No one was allowed to doubt Vatican's authority, the correctness of your Latin translations, or your calculation that between Roman collapse and Avar migration in Pannonia was less than a century. And now you openly admitted such things irritated you (along with my indecency to warn about our waste of time, probably then as now you haven't bothered to read the phrase or understand anything of it but "waste of time" and the personal pronouns which together were for you like a lit cigarette in a gas station)

And now you bring an extra evidence: when a moderator accused only me you applauded him; when he accused both of us you threatened to leave!
We all are supposed to do your way or no way at all! Your person, your attitude, your arguments are above the slime we, the mortals, swim in. More worryingly, you threatened to leave as the conflict started to fade away, which raisese big question marks on your lamentation on an unfriendly climate. So far you haven't proven you want one rather a fanclub where everyone should applaud you, ask for autographs or who knows what else. Maria asks about your book and she's friendly, I tell you're wrong and I'm arrogant and subtle.
 
And in the end, not the subtle things bothered you, but the straightaway ones. In fact you haven't noticed more subtle remarks like "though I do not contest your hypothesis" only blunt remarks like "you're wrong asserting this" or "Vatican has no authority".
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 12:06

It was not a "comma" that created the problems, Moderator Decebal.

It was the phrase of Chilbudios: "you're wasting the time replying to me on a history thread as I'm wasting my time with you", posted last october 13.    And the other subtle commentaries on my knowledge of Latin, on the Vatican Library and so on, that Chilbudios posted that day.
You see...I have not responded to his last two posts (that show his arrogance and provocations) but he keeps making subtle comments, like the last about the years between the fall of the Western Roman empire and the arrival of the first Avars in Pannonia.
Simply put: I am not used to be treated in such a way!
 
So, I agree with Maria: all this is disturbing....and like her, I will not participate in this Forum anymore! 
 
Bruno
 
 
 
 
 

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:50
Maria d., can you quote me calling you superficial? Or is the prejudice you approached me and this thread because you came here on behalf of Brunodam? Actually this is a rhetorical question, I don't need the answer.
 
There's a difference between Pannonia as a geographical entity and Pannonia as a Roman province (well, some times it was not even a single province: e.g. Superior and Inferior, the border of provinces changed: e.g. the aforementioned Carnuntum was initially in Noricum and then was included in Pannonia Superior).
Now, if we talk about Avars settling in Pannonia, or Hungarians, or other similar cases, we have in mind the geographical Pannonia (the Pannonian Plain) which is a plain surrounded by mountains and foothills from all sides and which is divided by Danube roughly in two.
A significant part of the Avar or Hungarian archaeological sites cannot even be included in the former territories of Roman provinces, being between Danube and Tisza. Other parts though are in the former territory of Roman provinces, are not in the former territory of Pannonias. Therefore we shouldn't limit the list of military units only to the list of Pannonian legions.
 
Now I contribute to this thread because it is a open forum. I contribute to discuss, to argue, to explain, to learn. If you are bothered by my contributions (because you consider them "confusing" or because you consider them "insulting" ) then just don't read them.


Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Oct-2006 at 11:54
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:39
II would please ask you to reconsider, maria. The only reason why I said you shared a bit of the blame was that you expressed an opinion that Chilbudios was the only one at fault, and I think that this added even more to the conflict. Now, your share of the "blame" was so minimal that in retrospect I would probably have been better off not even mentioning it at all. It's just that reading the whole thread, one got the impression that there were two camps and you were on bruno's side. In my trying to spread the "blame" around the two camps, I singled you out rather unfairly and I apologize.
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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:20
Decebal, can you say why I "share part of the blame"?
I have never make any comments...I have only asked one explanation in a KINDLY WAY about "confusing" grammar games and words....and when I wrote my first post in the topic, I quickly got the "subtle comment" of Chilbudios saying that I am superficial , I need to be more deep and include the Moesian legions,etc.. (while I was obviously only talking about Pannonia,not Moesia and Raetia and Illyria legions...).
All this is disturbing: I AM OUT OF THIS FORUM FOREVER!
Maria d.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:56

I'm glad to see that the conflict seems to have calmed down somewhat. I do have some comments though: I believe my last post on this topic somewhat unfairly singled out Chilbudios, whereas bruno and maria also shared part of the blame. To be honest, I have a hard time coming up with a good synopsys of what happened, since things just seemed to very subtly degenerate, without anyone being obviously at fault. Cezar, thank you for putting things into perspective: this is the first time I see an argument arising over... a comma! However, I would please ask you to refrain from posting in Romanian: although I understand the need in this case, it is against forum rules.

Anyway, I think that all topics relating to Transylvania are ultimately quite sensitive to Romanians and Hungarians alike. Whatever one's personal thoughts and feelings on the subject, one should remember that the odds of actually convincing someone else of one's own opinion (if they don't share it somewhat), in this case are very low. This is a potentially tense topic from the start and we should treat it as such. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a discussion, but it does mean that one should take special care not to be overly aggressive and not to make personal attacks of any kind, however they may be phrased.

As I said before, I don't think that one can place the blame square on one side's shoulders. I don't see the need for any formal warnings, but if this thread (or similar threads on Transylvania) degenerates once more, I may close it down for a few days, until things cool off.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:35
Decebal,
you were right when you told Chilbudios that "you have a way of arguing and inserting subtle comments here and there that may cause other members to lose their temper".   Those "subtle comments", with confusing games of words, are damaging the thread and destroying the friendliness of the forum.   Maria d.
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 02:19

Originally posted by maria d.

Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
and Legio VII Claudia Pia Fidelis (Viminacium) and Legio IV Flavia Felix (Singidunum). Though these two were located in Moesia Superior, they were nevertheless in the Pannonian plain, on the Middle Danube.
However, there were certainly military units in the Late Empire (even legions - Legio V Iovia, Legio VI Herculia, perhaps others as well) stationed in many other fortifications or activating in this area as late documents (Notitia Dignitatum) show. Listing the Roman military units which could possibly leave soldiers in Pannonian plain becomes then a bit more complex.
 
Originally posted by Brunodam

But the first Avars arrived around 550 AD in Pannonia, less than one century after the end of the western roman empire
However, the border in these areas collapsed decades before 476 and similarily the Avars weren't expanding consistently throughout Pannonia as early as the 550s. The gap is larger than one century.
 
 
 
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by maria d.

Originally posted by brunodam

My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile
 
It is fascinating, Bruno, but nearly impossible.
At the fall of the Western Roman Empire there were two roman legions stationed in Pannonia:
Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
 
There was until 117 AD even the Legio XV "Apollinaris", stationed at Aquincum (Buda). One interesting fact is that has been recently discovered a cave with paintings/writings in Uzbekistan, that are believed to be from some legionaries of the Legio XIV, brought there by the Parthians as frontier guards. We have to remember that the Avars moved from central Asia in the fourth/fifth century. Can these legionaries be the connection between the Avars and the Szeklers/Siculi?  Maria d.
 
Very interesting, Maria d.
Many scholars believe in two Hungarian migrations to Transylvania and to the plains of roman Pannonia, one prior to the main Magyar conquest of the Pannonian Plain in the ninth century.  According to this theory, the Szkely/Szeklers are a Hungarian group that settled in Pannonia during this first migration. This theory (of Gyula Laszlo) states that around 670 a new ethnic group moved into the Carpathian Basin, representing the late-Avar culture with a personal creeper pattern on their belt-clasp.
But the first Avars arrived around 550 AD in Pannonia, less than one century after the end of the western roman empire, and some legionaries of these legions could have remained living in Pannonia. Their descendants could have mixed with the Avars, creating the Siculi.  
But I too believe that it is nearly impossible, as you wrote.  Smile    Bruno

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Posts: 80 		  Quote maria d. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 23:07
Originally posted by brunodam

My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile
 
It is fascinating, Bruno, but nearly impossible.
At the fall of the Western Roman Empire there were two roman legions stationed in Pannonia:
Legio I "Adiutrix", stationed at Szony (Brigetio) in actual Hungary.
Legio XIV "Gemina", stationed ar Carnuntum (south of Vienna).
Both recruited legionaries mainly from the western mediterranean areas of the empire, so probably had Sicilian legionaries.
 
There was until 117 AD even the Legio XV "Apollinaris", stationed at Aquincum (Buda). One interesting fact is that has been recently discovered a cave with paintings/writings in Uzbekistan, that are believed to be from some legionaries of the Legio XIV, brought there by the Parthians as frontier guards. We have to remember that the Avars moved from central Asia in the fourth/fifth century. Can these legionaries be the connection between the Avars and the Szeklers/Siculi?  Maria d.
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Posts: 136 		  Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 21:13
My new book?    I am only beginning the second chapter.
Back to the Szekler topic, I was chatting yesterday with prof. Kocurek (who wrote about the Vlachs in Vlassko/Moravia) about the possibility that in a legion stationed in southern Pannonia and that had many legionaries enrolled in Sicily, some of these legionaries could have remained in Pannonia and could have so created there small colonies of Sicilians (called even Siculi in Latin).
These colonies could have mixed (during the barbarian invasions) with some Avars and so could have given the original name of Siculi to the Szeklers.  He thinks it is a fascinating possibility.  But I believe it is too much "theory".
What do you think about, Maria d.?   Bruno Smile

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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:02
Maria, in short "Gesta Hungarum" means "the Hungarian Gesta", while "Gesta Hungarorum" means "the Gesta of the Hungarians", of course, both meaningful titles. A "Gesta" is a narrative praising some fragments of a heroic past of some people (often translated into English as "the deeds of ... ")
 
All the other details were just grammar games Smile


Edited by Chilbudios - 16-Oct-2006 at 19:03
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