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The Greeks against the Axis forces

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Greeks against the Axis forces
    Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 11:08

First, to finegold: It is true that the greek victory was not some miracle, but for a careful observer (that did not exist at that time), it would be clear that the greek army was superior to the italian in quality, which is training (very basic, the italians had increased dramatically their numbers without providing enough training), morale, and in some cases even in equipment.
But still, the reasons you give are not the most primary, to my oppinion. The distance from Italy was a hinderance, however, as already stated by patrinos, the land infrastructure in Epirus and Albania was so poor (basically non-existant), that supplies had to be carried from the last train station at Ioannina to the front by mules, following mountain passages. That could take up to 3 days after the supplies were dispached for the soldiers to receive them. In fact, the Greeks had bigger problems with lack of ammunition and food than the Italians.
Also, as patrinos said, the preparation for fighting against the Italians was also poor, because the army was oriented against Bulgaria mainly. Unlike what many Italians seems to believe, there were practically no perpmanent defences on the Greek border with Albania until 1939, and then -as the italian danger appeared- only minor preparations were made at the ground. The Italians didn't find a prepared defence when they attacked Greece in October, and in fact, if they had made their plans better they could have won the war.

Patrine, the truth about the italian air force is that it was much bigger than the greek one, and appeared on the sky much more often than the greek. However, the time of the Grecoitalian war (Late autumn, winter, early spring) was the worst for an airforce, because the weather conditions were prohibiting operations. That's why a potentially important factor didn't play any role in this war.
Also, I don't think that in any way the greek soldiers lacked fighting spirit because they felt the Italians as 'brothers'. Perhaps they didn't hate them (as they would perhaps the 'traditional' enemies Bulgaria, Turkey etc), as they also didn't hate the Germans. But an invader is an invader. The Italians also had fighting spirit, but it was the course of the war that broke it.


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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 12:36
Originally posted by Patrinos

To Finegold (mainly)
The Greek regime of that period expected an attack from Yougoslavians and mainly from Bulgarians thats why Metaxas constructed the Metaxas Line,which is in the Grecobulgarian borders,we didn't expect an attack from the unexisted military Albania so we weren't so prepaired thats why there weren't such defend line like the rest borders.


Fortunately for the Greeks they just happen to have mountains in the vicinity, therefore acting as a natural barrier.  But it's irrelevent, because I never mentioned anything about defense preperations.  For better or for worse even minor natural barriers proved to be huge hinderences to the Italians throughout the war.

Adittionaly you have to know that Epirus is mountainous and very isolated from the rest of Greece,so its a dilema what is easier: to supply the greek troops from the one or two passages of Pindos mountains, with roads only for the Epirotes donkeys, or to supply the italian troops from the ports and bases of Northen Epirus?[ /quote]

It's much easier to supply the Greek Army, because they are at home, while the Italians have to do the same thing only supply an army that is larger and doesn't have a clear doctrine of logistics - or a doctrine of anything, at that.
 
I mean that previously you used the low activity of the italian air force as an excuse for the italian defeat, and I say that the italian air force didn't do a lot because the few greek planes didn't let them.


Right, and the fact that the Italian Air Force was never really good.  Experience from the Spanish Civil War, Egyptian Campaign and French Campaign underscore this.  And yes, it is an excuse for the Italian defeat. The lack of close air support is paramount to almost certain defeat.
 
[quote]Greeks didn't want either to fight because we consider Italians as our closest nation. The fact that we didn't hate each other doesn't mean that in the battlefield an Italian or a Greek soldier would care more for their nations' relations from their own lives. They both fought to see their families again, nobody gives his live easily.


Only, the Italians were fighting in a foreign nation, while the Greeks were fighting to defend their nation.  There is a huge difference in terms of morale and soldier's reasons to fight.  The message in the Italian Army was, "there is no reason to fight," while in the Greek army it was, "We need to defend out family."




Edited by J.M.Finegold - 16-Sep-2006 at 12:37
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  Quote Jeru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:29
Originally posted by J.M.Finegold


Only, the Italians were fighting in a foreign nation, while the Greeks were fighting to defend their nation.  There is a huge difference in terms of morale and soldier's reasons to fight.  The message in the Italian Army was, "there is no reason to fight," while in the Greek army it was, "We need to defend our family."
 
 
So you mean that the French or the Polish didn't have the same message with the Greeks?Didn't they fight for their families?Do not forget that the Nazis had to keep many soldiers in Greece because of the resistance,and the cassualties they suffered not just in numbers but also in morale(their loses in Crete were the heaviest in the war up to that point).
I can't imagine what would of had hapenned if the Nazis would move to Russia in May but Robert Harriss' "Fatherland" is a good example.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 14:43

Finegold you said about the mountainous greek soil and the bad consequences of that to the Italian army. Its like saying that in a football match where the grass condition is bad only one team would face difficulties. Its an unrealistic excuse. If the Italians couldn't use al their heavy weapons neither Greeks could. Italians had numerical superiority and of course better guns and they fought in the same field.

You said: "The message in the Italian Army was, "there is no reason to fight," "
That means what? That when Italians were under fire they didn't think their lives, families,country and thought about the futility of their war?
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 16:48
Jeru, noone underestimates the bravery of the French and even more of the Polish.
 
Patrine, what he says, and he is right, is that the Italians did not fight for an ideal, or at least did not believe in the ideal in which their regime believed when it sent them against Greece. So, the Italian soldier, if in difficult position would prefer to save his life, because even a defeat wouldn't much to him. While a Greek would die fighting, because defeat for him would mean slavery (well, sort of). 

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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 15:12
Does anybody know about the Greek participation in the Normandy Operation?
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 15:40
Very minor Patrine. I think some sailors, and perhaps a small ship or something.

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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 09:05
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq109-1.htm

a minor info
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 09:53
Originally posted by Patrinos

Finegold you said about the mountainous greek soil and the bad consequences of that to the Italian army. Its like saying that in a football match where the grass condition is bad only one team would face difficulties. Its an unrealistic excuse. If the Italians couldn't use al their heavy weapons neither Greeks could. Italians had numerical superiority and of course better guns and they fought in the same field.

You said: "The message in the Italian Army was, "there is no reason to fight," "
That means what? That when Italians were under fire they didn't think their lives, families,country and thought about the futility of their war?
Problem is that it is not a football match, it is a battle. And in battle mountainous terrain typically assists the defence. Too many places for ambushes and traps.
And by saying that the terrain helped Finegold is not saying thatb the greeks victory was somehow less impressive, indeed use of terrain is an essential feature in war fare.
 
So it is true that the terrain effected the Greeks and the Italians diffently.
 
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 10:24
Greece has suufered many casualties from albanian winter. Many of my uncles fought there.
I have been told stories of how they suffered the cold. MAny died from the cold.
Italians have alpinists(special forces) we didn't have those.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 11:00
Italians had also casualties from cold, but fewer than the greek, as they were better dressed.
The alpinists were only few, and were good fighters, something they proved also in other occasions they fought.

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  Quote EGETRK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 12:46
I heard something...Is there a ship who comes from Trkiye To Greece for help greek people during ww2...@ television,i saw greeks who talk about that...Can someone explain me??
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 12:51
Guys, thanks for the links and the photos. I'm writing this with tears in my eyes. A re patrida...
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 13:28
Originally posted by EGETάRK

I heard something...Is there a ship who comes from Tόrkiye To Greece for help greek people during ww2...@ television,i saw greeks who talk about that...Can someone explain me??
 
You are talking about the vessel ''Kurtoulus'' (not sure about the spelling, but I think it means Liberation).
 
This ship was the first that reached the greek shores after the German occupation in 1940, bringing food and humanitarian supplies. Until January 1942, that it was sunk in a storm, it delivered 7100 tons of supplies to the suffering from hunger greek people.
 
This ship it became a legend and every time that a ship was reaching the port people shouted ''Kurtoulus is coming, Kurtoulus is coming'', hoping that it will bring supplies.
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  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 16:15

A small part from the last interview with Professor Chris Woodhouse.

Greek feelings were generally very positive towards us, he said. Even when we were retreating, after the Germans invaded, people would still cheer us. It seemed unimportant whether we were winning, the point was they appreciated we were trying to help; and I soon got into the habit of just walking into a village, introducing myself as a British officer and asking for whoever I wanted to see. Never once was I betrayed.  He continued with a little story about a trip he made into Athens. I was feeling very proud of myself, quite sure I looked and smelt completely like a Greek shepherd, and having improved my Greek accent tremendously.  However, when I got off the bus, at Omonia, the driver tapped me on the shoulder and said: Eh, British, if you havent got anywhere to stay, Ive got a spare room! which totally deflated my histrionic and linguistic pride.

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/woodhouse.html
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  Quote EGETRK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 19:02
Originally posted by Giannis

Originally posted by EGETάRK

I heard something...Is there a ship who comes from Tόrkiye To Greece for help greek people during ww2...@ television,i saw greeks who talk about that...Can someone explain me??
 
You are talking about the vessel ''Kurtoulus'' (not sure about the spelling, but I think it means Liberation).
 
This ship was the first that reached the greek shores after the German occupation in 1940, bringing food and humanitarian supplies. Until January 1942, that it was sunk in a storm, it delivered 7100 tons of supplies to the suffering from hunger greek people.
 
This ship it became a legend and every time that a ship was reaching the port people shouted ''Kurtoulus is coming, Kurtoulus is coming'', hoping that it will bring supplies.
  Yes it is that,thank you for information
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 03:42
Look at this photo,taken by a British photographer. These are Cretans in an ambush with German soldiers : http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3446648, I believe that its authentic, and another good photo again from "leventomana" Crete: http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3446654

Edited by Patrinos - 20-Sep-2006 at 03:43
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 04:35
Amazing photos!!!!
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 09:47
Looks like a picture from a (bad) movie to me! Not a change in hell that this is an actual action picture... LOL
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 10:09

Its surely not from a movie, I remember it in the history book of the third class of highschool, with the name of the British photographer below.The issue is if it was fabricated by this British,its surely not from movie.

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