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The Greeks against the Axis forces

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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Greeks against the Axis forces
    Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 08:13
Share your opinion about the Greek contribution in WW2.
Here is an excellent page about the Greek resistance heard,the Crete.
                   http://www.crete1941.com/home4.htm
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 10:39
thanks for that link patrinos, great site and great photo's ( i love old photo's of our resistance/liberation fighters.)

reading what some of the stories in forum section actaully brought up some tears.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 10:56
some interesting stuff:
 
RESISTANCE DAYS:

GREECE : 219
NORWAY: 61
FRANCE: 43( A superpower of that time)
POLAND:30
BELGIUM: 18
NETHERLANDS: 4
YUGOSLAVIA: 3
 
 
=============================================================
 
 
About 500.000 people or the  12% of the entire Greek population was killed in World War 2. The highest price a country paid.
 
 
==============================================================

MILITARY LOSSES

ARMY
On the Balkan Front

In 1949 the Hellenic Army totalled 18 divisions. Except for its heavy guns, which were inferior, it had more efficient artillery than the Italians and more machine-guns, but it had only one pitifully equipped motorized division and virtually no tanks.

In October 1940 at the start of the Balkan campaign four first-line divisions opposed six Italian ones on the Albanian border. But Italian divisions 12,000-14,000 strong were smaller than Hellenic ones (18,500 strong) and the Italians were soon driven back, though they had air superiority.

By mid-November the Hellenics had numerical superiority on the front where eventually eleven infantry divisions, two infantry brigades, and one cavalry division opposed fifteen Italian infantry divisions and one tank division.

Other Hellenic divisions manned the Metaxas, or Nestos, Line, which protected Salonika, and, with British forces, the Aliakmon Line.

Casualties during the Balkan campaign amounted to 13,408 killed and 42,485 wounded.



In the Middle East, Italy and back in Greece

About 9,000 escaped to Crete, others fled through Turkey to Egypt. These constituted the 18,500-strong Royal Hellenic Army in the Middle East which came under British command and which eventually formed three brigades, an armoured car regiment, an artillery regiment, and the Hellenic Sacred regiment, made up solely of officers.

One brigade fought at the second El Alamein battle before being withdrawn, but the rest, apart from the Hellenic Sacred Regiment, saw little active service as the army was riven by politics. After the mutiny of April 1944, which precipitated a confront with British forces, much of it was interned.

The rest were used for non-operational duties, though 2,500 of those regarded as more 'reliable' were formed into the Third Mountain Brigade which subsequently fought with distinction in the Italian campaign.

There it became known as the Rimini Brigade, and it helped the British quell the ELAS insurgency in Athens in December 1944.


NAVY

In October 1940 the Hellenic Navy comprised 200 officers and 2,700 men. The fleet consisted of an ancient 10,000-ton cruiser, a flotilla of 6 modern and 4 old destroyers, 13 old torpedo boats, 6 submarines, and 30 miscellaneous craft.

Its submarines sank 18 Italian ships from Adriadic convoys, but in April 1941 many Greek warships were sunk by German aircraft.

Twelve, including the cruiser, three new destroyers, and three submarines escaped to Alexanderia, and were subsequently operated under overall British command.

By April 1944 the numbers had risen to several thousand men, some of whom manned destroyers handed over by the British.

Five ships, which joined the mutinies of April 1944, were stormed by Hellenic seamen loyal to the government-in-exile. Eleven seamen were killed, others wounded, and many were subsequently interned.

AIR FORCE

The Army and Navy Air Forces comprised about 3,000 men. These flew and maintained a miscellany of about 300 aircraft, many of them obsolete, and they made no impact on the Italians.

There were too many aircraft types, few spare parts, no replacement aircraft, and a dearth of forward airfields because of the country's rugged terrain.

Too few personnel escaped for an independent air force to be formed but eventually three Hellenic squadrons (nos 13, 335, and 336) were raised as part of the Western Desert Air Force.

MERCHANT MARINE

At the outbreak of war the substantial Hellenic Merchant Marine consisted of 557 ships, totalling 1,837,315 tons.

Of these 334 were sunk through Axis action, 32 were seized by the Axis powers, and 63 were lost for other reasons. Total tonnage lost amounted to 1,346,502, 71% of the total.

Two thousand seamen lost their lives and a further 2,500 were wounded, losses which had a disproportionate impact on the relatively small number of Aegean islands from which crews were recruited.

source
R.Clogg, Oxford Companion to the Second World War (1995), p.508
 
 
========================================================================
 
The cost for the Greek people was big in the WW II.
 
The British Minister of War  and Foreign affairs (and later Prime Minister) Sir Rober Anthony EDEN said as about Greece in WWII

""'Irrevently to what history writters will tell us in the future,what can be said now is that Greece gave a great lesson to Moussolini,and that lesson (the greek resistance) was the reason for the revolution in Yugoslavia.
 
They held the Germans in continental territory and in Crete for 6 weeks, and this reversed all the chronological line of all drawings of all German military staff and thus brought a general change in the whole course of the war. That is why we won WWII""

 
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 12:43
Originally posted by akritas

some interesting stuff:
 
RESISTANCE DAYS:

GREECE : 219
NORWAY: 61
FRANCE: 43( A superpower of that time)
POLAND:30
BELGIUM: 18
NETHERLANDS: 4
YUGOSLAVIA: 3
 
 
Yes, Greek resistance was a remarkable one indeed...
 
But one fact I want to mention is, as for the comparison:
 
The differences in amount of power used in Axis campaigns shall be taken into account.
 
While Germans attacked Poland and Yugoslavia, especially Poland with huge forces in terms of army, and with most of Luftwaffe bombers, Greece wasn't attacked by German army and air force of that strength.It was one of the reasons why resistance hadn't been repressed in short time, in addition to the fact that incapable Italian army was attacking in first term.
 
Though, the effort General Papagos and his men had shown in pushing Italians all way back to Northern Albania shall be really applaudedWink..
 
The Greek victory against Italians had been happily watched in Turkey,who was also afraid of new Italian threat in Mediterranean..I had a picture published in one of newspapers, showing the wave of happiness in Turkey...I will scan and bring it up when I have time..
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:06
It's true that the greek resistance had a remarkable success against the Axis, but there is also and the dark side, that it's a taboo in our society. The fact that after 1943 (Gorgopotamos bridge, incident), the resistance parties (EDES and ELAS especially) were more interested to kill each other, than to get rid of the german troops. There are also facts that certain resistance groups co-operate with the germans, so they could eliminate another resistance fraction.
 
Of course, I don't blame the people that fought in both sides, but only their short-sighted leaders and the british-soviet influence.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:18

They said about the  Greeks and their resistance.

 

 

The general Keitel in the Nurenberg trial said:

The unexpected and strong resistance of the Greeks  slackened the attack against Russia for more than two months. If there wasnt this delay, the progress of the war would be totaly different, such in the Eastern Front as in the War generally, and others today would be in the sit of the defendant.

 

 

The British minister F. Noel Baker (October 1942)

If  Greece accepted the Mussolinis ultimatum, no one, could blame her... Axis would prevail I the Mediterranean... Syria, Iraq, Persia, Cyprus ,would be occupied by the Axis. Turkey would be encircled. The oil wells of Middle East would be available for them. The back door of Caucausus would be opened ... Thanks to the Greek resistance ,we got the time to repel and  smash the italian army, which moved from Libya against Egypt, to clean up the Red Sea from the enemy ships, to transfer the american help to the Near East and disable the enemy threat against it. If Stalingrad and Caucasus hold today,this isnt disrelated of the Greek resistance of which we are benefited today,two years after. The world dont have the right to forget the greek achievements of that historic moment.

 

 

Josheph Goebbels in his diary,8 April 1941, two days after the german attack, impressed by the fighting spirit of the Greeks: We proceed slowly in Greece... The Greeks are brave fighters... and Fuhrer himself admires specially the  courage of the Greeks. Maybe there is still a trace of their ancient greek descent in them

 

In this last sentence is obvious the racist nordicist ideology of the nazis who using Fallmerayer thesis came to Greece to conquer a blackhaired race which destroyed the nordic race of the ancient Greeks according to their believes...

 

 

Leny Rifenstall in her autobiography quotes that Hitler had said to her their meeting on 30 March 1944:

If the Italians hadnt attacked Greece and they didnt need our help, the War would have a different turn. I would made it to conquer Leningrad and Moscow, before the russian winter.

 
Of course after this epos of 40 the greek virus, which affect us from the beginning of our history,affected us again and we started a disastrous civil war which caused many many victims and economic, politic regress.
 
Leonidas said:
reading what some of the stories in forum section actaully brought up some tears.
 That's the Greek DNA test.
 
and a link for caricature,documents and photos.
 



Edited by Patrinos - 15-Sep-2006 at 13:25
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:26

@Giannis the Greek Civil war is not consern the Greek resistance against Axis.Is diffrent matter , different historical issue and diffrent part of the Hellenic history.

@Kapikulu
Agree with a part of course.Because the German used motor-divisions and Luftawe with 2000 planes (only 500 Ju-52)  that had as result the quick collapse of any resistance.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:41

First, this with the resistance days is not correct, because most of these 219 days of greek resistance were against Italians, while the days of other countries were against Germans. If Greece had been attacked directly by Germany, I'm afraid we would have a second Yugoslavia.

500.000 people or the  12% of the entire Greek population was killed in World War 2
You realize that the population of Greece at that time was about 7,5 millions? 500,000 is much less than 12%.
 
Hellenic ones (18,500 strong)
18,500? Whoa? I never read of a Greek division with more than 15,000 and that was the 'big' 5th division. Average greek division had like 12,000 men.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:53
Originally posted by xristar

First, this with the resistance days is not correct, because most of these 219 days of greek resistance were against Italians, while the days of other countries were against Germans. If Greece had been attacked directly by Germany, I'm afraid we would have a second Yugoslavia.
The thread is speak for.....against the Axis Forces and not in the supposing war only against  Nazis.
 
 
Originally posted by xristar

You realize that the population of Greece at that time was about 7,5 millions? 500,000 is much less than 12%.
.
The population of Greece  at that times estimated 8.2 mil. Only from the starvation and the executions died 350.000 un-armed  people!!!
Was not only the battlefield.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:53
It should also be realized that the majority of the time of the stated resistance was not against German forces, but against purely Italian forces. These are the same Italians that failed to subdue 30,000 English troops in Egypt, with an army of 200,000, due to logistics problems and lack of troop morale, as well as lathargy in the general staff.  Also the same Italians who with an army of 300,000 were defeated by a French defense of 40,000 after the Germans had broken through the north.  
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:54
Hellenic Sacred Regiment
It was a -large- company. With like 350 men. Certainly not a regiment.
 
Greece wasn't attacked by German army and air force of that strength
True, but still the bulk of the greek army was in Albania. Against the greek defence line in eastern macedonia the Germans had a big numerical and firepower advandage.
 
It is nice for us Greeks to believe that we substancially contributed to the defeat of the Axis by delaying the german attack in Russia, and that our blood and efforts were not without meaning. But the truth seems to be that wether the balkan campaign had happened or not, the scheduled day for Barbarossa was the same. However it is a general perception that the greek resistance played a role, mainly because this is convenient for us (Greeks), the Germans who didn't want to accept their inability, and the British, who actively participated in delaying the Germans in Greece.

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Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:01
Originally posted by J.M.Finegold

It should also be realized that the majority of the time of the stated resistance was not against German forces, but against purely Italian forces. These are the same Italians that failed to subdue 30,000 English troops in Egypt, with an army of 200,000, due to logistics problems and lack of troop morale, as well as lathargy in the general staff.  Also the same Italians who with an army of 300,000 were defeated by a French defense of 40,000 after the Germans had broken through the north.  
Do not underestimate the Italians so much. Of course the reasons for the Italian failure against Greece were pretty much the same with the other failures, but notice that 1)the Greek army did not have the heavy defences that the french had 2)the Italian army was not scattered in small units when it attacked Greece, on the contrary, in the late parts of the war, the Italians had pretty big concentration of units 3)the Greek army was not equally equiped as the french or the british. 

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It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:04

The Hellenic Sacred Regiment was made up of only officers  and was part of 18,500 men formed the Royal Hellenic Army which were controlled by the British. They had 3 brigades, an armored car regiment, an artillery regiment, One brigade fought at the 2nd battle of El Alamein.

Xristar the Nazis never had as plan the Balkans. Barbarossa first plan was in May and not in June as happened.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 16:24
Originally posted by xristar

2)the Italian army was not scattered in small units when it attacked Greece, on the contrary, in the late parts of the war, the Italians had pretty big concentration of units


Nevertheless, Greek units were much more manueverable than the huge, chunky Italian bodies of soldiers attempting to breakthrough into northern Greence, from Albania. 


3)the Greek army was not equally equiped as the french or the british.


The Greek Army that fought against the Italians perhaps didn't have the technology of the British, but it was in a much better state than the British Army which occupied Egypt during the Italian offensive in the area.

Furthermore, the Italians couldn't preform accurate and constant close air support.  In fact, with Il Duce visited Albania there was a strafe attempt on him - that's how poor Italian aircover over their own territory and units was!  The Italian Army advanced under poor morale, especially during the winter, and the Italian Army did not have the initiative in junior leadership to effectively preform tactical manuevers when they met Greek resistance.  The Italian army lacked effective mechanization and a long string of mechanized logistics, et cetera. 

There is nothing to underestimate in the Italian Army.  The fact that Italian soldiers didn't want to fight underscores the lackluster within its ranks.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 19:02

Finegold    when we say about greek weaponry inferiority we mean that the greek army had the same guns with that of the Balkan Wars.I know from olders that a lot have with them their family guns which were from the times of...   You said about low italian morale especially during the winter, so what, the Greeks were fighting under better conditions? The supplies for the army transferred by Northen-Epirote men and women..

 

I dont understand why couldnt the italian air force do its job, if it didnt worked according to Mussolinis plans those who were responsible were the small in number greek planes, this isnt an excuse for Italys army.

 Of course an important parameter was the lack of fanatism in the Italians. The Italians never believed that they are a superior race,in contrast to Germans, and they always had ties with Greek people. I have seen in an italian documentary how strange it was for Grecanis and all South Italians to fight a friend nation. The same feelings and the Greeks had and had been shown in how we protected a lot of Italian soldiers during the German-Italian relation breaking.

You said: The Italian army lacked effective mechanization and a long string of mechanized logistics    You dont expect me to say  what the Greek army didnt have.

 

 Xristar , I dont think that Germans admitted that the Wars result would be better for them if the Axis powers didnt delay in Greece, because of their inability. They were  psychos but they werent stupid. They wouldnt start the Operation Barbarossa in late June with affect to give the Russians time to prepare and of course the inability to complete the operation before the heavy russian winter.

 

 

Does anyone can say anything about the Albanian collaboration with the Italian army. Did the Camuria Corps include albanians?

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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 20:07
Originally posted by Patrinos


Finegold    when we say about greek weaponry inferiority we mean that the greek army had the same guns with that of the Balkan Wars.I know from olders that a lot have with them their family guns which were from the times of...   You said about low italian morale especially during the winter, so what, the Greeks were fighting under better conditions? The supplies for the army transferred by Northen-Epirote men and women..


The Greeks were fighting in terrain they knew, and with pre-war logistics that were designed around defense.  The Italians had to extend their supply lines in order to invade Greece, and moreso, they had to supply them from Italy, through Albania, then into Greece.  There is an obvious disadvantage in logistic length and complexity, especially if you take into consideration the lack of Italian logistics to begin with.  Italian logistic problems in Egypt in 1941 underscore this.


I dont understand why couldnt the italian air force do its job, if it didnt worked according to Mussolinis plans those who were responsible were the small in number greek planes, this isnt an excuse for Italys army.


I don't understand the point you are trying to make.


Of course an important parameter was the lack of fanatism in the Italians. The Italians never believed that they are a superior race,in contrast to Germans, and they always had ties with Greek people.


Exactly, the Italian soldiers simply didn't want to fight. 


You said: The Italian army lacked effective mechanization and a long string of mechanized logistics    You dont expect me to say  what the Greek army didnt have.


Again, the Greeks did not have to support an army across a sea, into Albania, and then into whatever parts of Greece they occupied.  This becomes paramount once you realize the state of the Italian Army and it's lack of a cohesive doctrine.



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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 21:10
Originally posted by Patrinos

 

I dont understand why couldnt the italian air force do its job,  

 
Italian air force was a mediocre one, not so great, both in numbers&experience and in technology...
 
Moreover, they weren't really super-effective like German aircrafts in tactical bombing and close air support(pilots and technology factors), because Italian technology was more concentrated on interceptors and naval bombers...
 
So, Squadrone Bombardieri Tattici didn't do so much work on Greece.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 21:39
To Finegold (mainly)
The Greek regime of that period expected an attack from Yougoslavians and mainly from Bulgarians thats why Metaxas constructed the Metaxas Line,which is in the Grecobulgarian borders,we didn't expect an attack from the unexisted military Albania so we weren't so prepaired thats why there weren't such defend line like the rest borders. Albania was an Italian protectorate and our albanian "friends" make Albania their home and base, so it wasn't a unknown terrain for Duce's facists generals who of course were planning this invansion years ago. Adittionaly you have to know that Epirus is mountainous and very isolated from the rest of Greece,so its a dilema what is easier: to supply the greek troops from the one or two passages of Pindos mountains, with roads only for the Epirotes donkeys, or to supply the italian troops from the ports and bases of Northen Epirus? 
 
In the second quote you didn't understand what i mean. I mean that previously you used the low activity of the italian air force as an excuse for the italian defeat, and I say that the italian air force didn't do a lot because the few greek planes didn't let them.
 
In the third quote you didn't say the whole truth. Greeks didn't want either to fight because we consider Italians as our closest nation. The fact that we didn't hate each other doesn't mean that in the battlefield an Italian or a Greek soldier would care more for their nations' relations from their own lives. They both fought to see their families again, nobody gives his live easily.
 
About your fourth quote I answered partialy in my first paragraph. Take a look in a map and see how close is the battlefield from the port of Agioi Saranda(Sarande).
 
ps (where are you from, fratteli italiano?)
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  Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 22:09
The Greek's were the only minor European Power to drive the Axis out when they invaded.They were also the last country Hitler and Mussolini would conquer.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 07:41
greek poeple fight good,Italians give up good.this is summary is also good
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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