Turkish-Azeri-Turkmen Turks cultural conn

Just stating your own IDEA with no proofs.

Edited by Bulldog - 19-Sep-2006 at 08:54

It's you who's always neglecting historical points.

YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS. About Koroghlu and Molla Nasreddin, you're just telling us about your own idea. It's not an answer; it's your own personal idea. You say Koroghlu was Turkmen; I say Ozbeks, but believe he was an Ozbek; so we can't be sure, for the time being. You say Molla Nasreddin is Turk; I say Iranians say he was Iranian. You talk about refrences? Well, I'll suggest 'Navayi' poems about Koroghlu. About Molla Nasreddin, virtually all Iranian social books have mentioned such a person.

About Koroghlu and Molla Nasreddin, you're just telling us about your own idea.

Really? would you care to read the sources I have given, none are my views there not even views of Turks which I purposely did to avoid bias.

Calling Nasreddin Hodja, Mollah Nasreddin just proves what I've been saying all along about your perspectives.

Now this time, try to actually read and understand that you do not hold the ultimate truth to everything in this world.


Celebration of anniversaries

The General Conference,

Having taken note of 146 EX/Decision 9.2 and 147 EX/Decision 8.7,

Decides that:

(a) UNESCO shall be associated in 1996-1997 with the following celebrations:

(xxix) seven hundredth anniversary of the death of the Turkish humorist Nasreddin

Hoca, Hodja ( Nasruddin, Goha) (1996);


http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001018/101803E.pdf#search=%22Supports%20OAU%20Resolution%20CM%2FRES.1603%20(LXII)%20%20Nasreddin%20%22


This isn't my idea now is it....


The Turkish Jester by Hoca Nasreddin

Bibliographic Record Creator Nasreddin, Hoca
Translator Borrow, George Henry, 1803-1881
Title The Turkish Jester
or, The Pleasantries of Cogia Nasr Eddin Effendi


http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244


Im not the founder of this book, it was translated in 1803 so I don't know how it can be "my views".


Nasreddin Hodja
Tales of the Turkish Trickster
D. L. Ashliman

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hodja.html

http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~schiff/Net/front.html

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197103/a.man.of.many.names.htm


Nope, not my views either but these are examples of the facts and sources which are reliable and which I gather my knowledge on the subject from.

His tomb is in Turkey, his jokes are in Turkish he even has jokes about Persians, he's mentioned in Sari Saltuks Saltukname, works by Cem Sultan brother of Mehmed the Conqueror, in the Paris Bibilioteque, Evliya Celebi......... and so on

Between July 5-10 of each year, International Nasreddin Hodja Festival takes place in Aksheir, where his tomb is.


These are the realities my friend.

Koroglu is an epic for Turks, this isn't just "my idea" its a reality and if you really know about Turkmenistan you know it aswell.


You say Koroghlu was Turkmen; I say Ozbeks, but believe he was an Ozbek

He was a Turk at the time the Koroglu Epic first began there was no term such as "Ozbek", he was a Turk and the Koroglu Epic is repeated throughout Turk communities.

Well, I'll suggest 'Navayi' poems about Koroghlu.

You think Navayi was an Ozbek? Navayi influenced the Turks literary world immensely, his works helped flourish Ottoman Turkish literature also, like Fuzulli, Nedim, Baki.......

People of Turkmenistan are Turkmens. You're not from the core family of the empire GokTurk, to be considered Turk. You're Oghuz; but just as a contract, you classified as Turk (this does not mean you're Turk). For we Central Asians, we're first Turkmen or Ozbek or Kazak or Kyrkiz, and then you could classify us the way you want. That's why when you say to an Ozbek you're originally a Turk, he'll disagree with you.

This is extremely basic, I can't believe your comming up with such obscure ideas, so if you arn't directly related to the core family of GokTurks you can't be a Turk. You have real issues with trying to exclude people don't you, who gives You the right to determine who is and isn't whatever they percieve themselves to be.

It depends on whici Ozbek you ask, there are Ozbeks who don't disagree when you called a Turk, there not "originally" Turks, they are Turks. The new generation in Ozbekistan embraces this more than the generations before stuck under the Soviets who ingrained such ideas into people's minds.

Ozbek is a pollitical name, Turk is the ethnicity. There are Ozbeks who are Muslim first, there are Ozbeks who are Turk first there are older generation Ozbeks who are Ozbek first. Stop stereotyping people.

The written language might be SOMEHOW understood; but definately, you won't understand much when it comes to hear the language. Even in written language, Turkish people don't understand word by word; but they would get the total meanig. This is anyhow for OFFICIAl language. Why are you neglecting the differences I've been talking about in 'Northern Turkmen vs Anatolian'?

Because the Official Language is the Official Language not the Northern accents. Now there can ofcourse be regional accents and differences, others could come hear and present accents in Turkey or say Turkish Cypriot or Bulgarian or Gagauz Turkish accents find the most different sounding accent and try to present it as another language.

The North of Turkmenistan is not the most populated area and majority of people in Turkmenistan don't have this accent. So we cannot treat it as the representative of Turkmenistan.


I agree with you we've got a lot in common; just because we all are of the Turkic family. In most cases, we share the common Turkic heritage. Ofcourse, we are closer, compared to Kiptchaks. But, we're not as close as you might think. You haven't been here. Turks aren't considered as friendly as you might think. See, You and I have studied history. WE know we're classified as 'Turks' (althought we're not really Turks; let's say we're Turkic speaking). Now, ask a normal Turkmen, I mean somebody who'se not familiar with history, the same questions 'are you a Turk'?'. He would say 'no, I'm a Turkmen' right away. I know you'll say agian 'you're not the only Turkmen here'. Alright, but you haven't been in Turkmenistan.

I've told you before, I have been to Turkmenistan, I've been to Turkey and briefly to Azerbaijan. This is how I have picked up the many similarities. When I go to these places I know ofcourse there will be differences there is a large geographical distance. However, what amazes and suprises me what the people have in common. There is a clear bond, the people feel it, the social similairites, cultural, historical links can be seen, musical, traditional, culinary etc This is what I find interesting, how did they keep this alive. Turkish language is very versatile and has a strong foundation as the structure is more or less very similar even after living apart for nearly a thousand years in some cases.

I'm not as interested in differences because I expect there to be differences, its stating the obvious.

I was suprised how people in Turkey still feel alot of respect, love and a clear bond to Turkmens and Turkmenistan. They help them out, want to learn about Turkmenistan which is called "AtaYurdu", its amazing to see the people acknowledging this.

Now you have your ignorant, illeterates in all countries, only education and experience can set their minds free, we cannot take them as examples and ruin images of nations because of this minority.

Generally Turkmens do feel Turk and a bond to this as the word Turk is in Turkmen so its natural. But your correct about others, for example some Khirgiz. It depends from Turkic state to state, Kazak's have a stronger feeling of being Turk, Nazabayev says he's a real Turk and Kazak's are proper Turks.



I accept we're all Turk(ic speaking)s; but as a Turkmen, a Turk is a foreigner, somehow European for me. You THINK our cultures are similar. But the fact is that a Turkish is easily distinguished from a Turkmen at the first sight; because his LIFE and the way he behaves really differs from that of a Turkmen.

Your correct to an extent but a Turk is not seen as a "foreigner" in Turkmenistan and vica-versa in Turkey, its like a distant relative you havn't seen for years. Now you havn't seen this person for a long time however, could you call him/her "foreigner" ofcourse not and there would obviously be a bond, connection between the two and you'd both be suprised by what you have in common and be pleased about this.

Also you must not forget, there are many Turkmens in Urban areas now who adopt city life.

Personally I love the nomadic style, its for "freedom". Something suprising about alot of Turks in Turkey is that when you go into their homes they have all their Carpets, Blankets, Fabrics all folded up packed on top of each other in the corner as if their still on the move They like to spend most their time outside the house, they care more about the area they spend in outside the house than inside the house and can easily just get up leave an area and go to another part of Turkey or even other countries. I feel Turks in Turkey have a Semi-Nomadic spirit in them, most are now settled but they still have Nomadic tendancies. Many go to "Yayla" in Summer and move to Lowlands in Winter. They organise events "Senliks" and take Tents and stay there. Soon in "Erciyes" there will be a Kurultay, hundreds of thousands go with Tents and stay in the rural area.

These are all Turkic legends and literature. Oghuz Qaqa is Turkmen's father (9 Oghuz), but Uighurs also claim Oghuz Qaqa is their father. In their Oghuznama, it's written 'men Uighurlarnyng qaghany men' (I'm Uighur's Kagan).

The Oghuznama also is called Hun-Turk epic, its so old that its shared by all Turks as back then there was not as many Turk branches.
    

Edited by Bulldog - 20-Sep-2006 at 07:15

By the way, I really appreciate this; I mean being more friendly. Things have come down. I hope this continues always like this.

We should forget about Molla Nasreddin and people like this; cause you've got your own proofs which I don't accept (!!!) and I've got mine wich you don't accept (!!!).

Edited by gok_toruk - 21-Sep-2006 at 05:13

Gok_toruk said "Turkmens where at Kazakhstan at that time" IIRC, so i'll ask some questions to him:

-where they also called as "Turkmen" when they where in Kazakhstan (wich i dont remember it)? Yes or No?
 
-if NO, then how dare you to say we (middle eastern to balkan Turkmens) arent "real" (or igi, qul as they say it out there) Turkmen then if you are self being not one at that time, wich our ancestors where called so by youre so-trusted Iranian (and even arabic) historians?


Im searching after the logic.

That's because you don't know Farsi. To anytime you might continue, but just the way you claim he was Turk, Iranians claim he was Iranian.

Only Turkish and Azeri people believe they speak Turkish. No Turkmen, no Ozbek, no Kazak and no Kyrkiz is like this.

Kayi tribe is one of the southern tribe. In fact, they live (and sometimes considered) with Koklengs who inhabited northeastern Iran and southern Turkmenistan border.

By the way, let me explain something here. When I say Turkmens were livign in Kazakstan at the time, I mean the major 9 tribes. The tribes like 'Kayi' was never a major tribe. It's just a sub family; not even a junior 'boy'.

Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes; not 24. Why should we repeat the same sentences?

'Ozan' was specific to Sihun Oghuz tribes. Turkmens don't use it. We use 'baqshy'. I explained 'Baghlama' and 'Tamdra' are not similar.

All I'm trying to say is 9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuzes were not the same tribal confederation. The 9 major Turkmen tribes all lived in Kazakstan (first) before coming to Turkmenistan. 'Kayi' is not a major tribe; it's just a sub-family which is of southern tribes. You're only talking about 2 'southern' tribes Kokleng and Yomut while there exist also 7 other tribes which are really different from Turkish. We are 9 tribes which are different from your 24 tribes.

I might be blind anyhow to see such similarities! Maybe that's why I prefer to say we only share things which are common among most of Turks.

Iraki and Anatolian Turkmens speak a dialect similar to Azeri; in fact Iraqi Turkmen language is considered a dialect of Azeri. We haven't got much in common. A Turkish (let's say any stranger) is easily recognized at the first sight in Turkmeistan. Ozbeks, Kyrkizes and Kazaks are not of Oghuz origin. But, they are closer to Turkmens that Anatolian people. Turkish people are somehow like westerners.

Edited by gok_toruk - 22-Sep-2006 at 10:35

Iranian documents about Turks were written by famous Iranians like 'Beyhaghi' and 'Bal'ami'; not Turks.