macedonia and greece ,are they the same e

In Turkey there are uncountable Ionian(and dorian,aiolian) Greek monuments in all over the west side and many other places. What does it mean? That Turks are Ionian and Dorian Greeks? I don't think so.

Arber:

Originally posted by Penelope Has anyone here read the writings of Demosthenes?

Originally posted by Penelope

Has anyone here read the writings of Demosthenes?

So the Skopjean propagandists and Fyromian 'theorists' and whoever else, would have us BELIEVE that during antiquity, in the areas of Macedonia, lived tribes that were NOT Greek and that they HATED Greeks, despite the fact that they had a GREEK name.

That the leaders of those tribes were HELLENISED?!?! and so THAT'S how we don't have any RECORD of their existence.

They claim that the Macedonians were Illyric, or, EVEN Thracian tribes (how quickly they change their opinion!!) and that they were NOT Greeks.

At about the 4th century BC the 'Macedonians' conquered the other Greek lands and established their kingdom (Hellenistic period 323-127BC). They developed a high level of civilization, but there is NO evidence of THAT 'Macedonian' civilization because the EVIDENCE has SOMEHOW been DESTROYED!! 

Also, that the language that they used (that was not Greek!) must have been spread all over the empire of Alexander, but, for UNKNOWN reasons, there is NO evidence of THAT language, and we can find only evidence of the Greek language and culture (ancient Greek propaganda?)

That round about the 1st century BC, they were conquered by the Romans (who probably continued the ANTI-MACEDONIAN propaganda!).


Farcical!!!
Why??  Because...;

If they were a NON-GREEK tribe, then WHAT were they DOING with a GREEK NAME as an IDENTIFIER?

If they were HELLENISED, then that should have happened by the IONIAN COLONIES in Macedonia's coasts, which means that they should have become Greek (Ionian) speaking.

The evidence we have found proves that their dialect was closer to the DORIC dialect and not IONIAN!

If they were not using the Greek language then, why can't we find an inscription with non-Greek characters in Macedonia?

Every inscription and every coin found is in Greek (Can any Fyromian dare question that??).  Didn't they like writing in their own mysterious language?? Weren�t they proud of it?  What kind of language was that, that didn't leave any records/traces?

Their answer = that there is a 2500 year old mysterious world-wide conspiracy against them, that SOMEHOW destroyed ALL the evidence!!!!

Sucked in yet?

Lingustically there is no doubt that the so called "Macedonian language" is a Bulgarian dialect. The Slavs of Vardar were traditionally described as Bulgarian by foreign observers: according to to a 1899 edition of Encyclopedia Brittannica in regards to the Serb claim of the population:
QUOTE = "Almost all independent authorities, however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia is Bulgarian".

According to the existing archives there was no objective reference to a MACEDONIAN nation, in the beginning of the 20th century.

The League of Nations (forerunner to UN set up after WWI) never mentions any Macedonian race/ ethnicity.

Journal "Le Temps" Paris 1905 (Gave a total population of 2,782,000 inhabitants and no "Macedonian" race)

Prof. G. Wiegland - Die Nationalen Bestrebungen der Balkansvφlker. Leipzig 1898 (Gave a total population of 2,275,000 inhabitants and no "Macedonian" race)


In 1877, according to a map (British E.Stanford 1877) the area of Macedonia was mainly inhabited by Greeks, and in smaller amounts, Albanians, Turks, Vlahs, Serbs, Bulgarians.

None of the following censuses identified any "Macedonian" language/ conscience/ ethnicity; only Greek, Bulgarian, Vlach, Turk, Albanian, Roma or Serb:

-Official Turkish Statistic Ethnicity of Macedonia Philippopoli 1881

-Vassil Kantcheff - Macedonia Ethnicity and Statistic - 1900

-Leon Dominian - The frontiers of Language and Nationality in Europe. Published for the American Geographical Society of New York 1917

-Richard von Mach - Der Machtbereich des bulgarischen Exarchats in der Tόrkei. Leipzig - Neuchatel, 1906

-Prinz Tcherkasky ethnographie 1877

In 1904 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for Thessaloniki, Monastiri, Scopje doesn't report any 'Macedonian' nation.

In 1906 the Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha for the area of Macedonia doesn't report any Macedonian nation.

In 1926 the League of the Nations doesn't report ANY "Macedonian" nation in Southern Macedonia.  BUT suddenly, in 1948, the encyclopaedia Britannica publishes a census that has discovered a hidden, for any previous census, "Macedonian" nationality (about 66.1% of the total population in FYROM).


(if the last record is considered reliable then we cannot assume anything else than, that the nation of the so called "Macedonians" was formed suddenly and very recently, sometime between 1926-1948!

Amazing, how such a young nation wishes to get linked with Alexander
(who died in 323BC) by identifying itself with an ancient Greek name?

If such a nation ever existed, then there should be at least a 10% of "Macedonians" in every census (at least in the turkish census), one would think!


The Fyrom Slavic majority are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'.

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:

"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10 to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced: they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the "Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to as the "Shopski language".
(Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is available for examination and study)

Here is the text in the original (in Bulgarian)

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga, podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe, nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie, kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."

THE MACEDONIANS CLUNG TO THEIR OLD TRADITIONS
This being the case, the inhabitants of Macedonia are descendants of the old Arian (Greek) settlers. Prehistorical data are very clear on this point. Since the dawn of history, the names of the people and the places in 'Macledonia are Greek (Karanos, Perdiccas, Amyntas, Aeropus, Alcetas, Kleitos, Emathia, Eidomene, Haliacmon, Echedorus, Dion, etc). In addition, there is a tradition that the Greek dialect of the Macedonians preserved, and rightly so, the old peculiarities of the Homeric times, retaining the nominative cases of the first declension without "s", as is the case with the Thessalian and the Boeotian dialects, such as ippota, mhtieta, nepheligereta, olympionica, etc. This very thing is also denoted by the name Ptolemaios (Homeric Ptolemos), while the southerners were saying later polemos-Polemon. It is not improper to mention here that the bodyguards of the kings of Macedonia were called "etairoi" of the King, that is, fellow-warriors and companions, as in the time of Homer.
Thus, the Macedonian dialect was preserved in an undeveloped and archaic state, as was the case with their entire civilization, but it was Greek.
http://www.macedonia.com/english/origin.html


MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE GREEk!!

Originally posted by Anton Pompeius Trogus says that Greeks came to Macedonia with Karanos (which according to Sotiroff is in 810 BC or around that time) (This wasn't actually cited, but he also says that Old name of Macedonians was pelasgoi (authochtonic balcan tribe) -- This was in book VII., cited from Justinians "Epistome",  "Garnier" publisher, Paris, 1936, v1, p155 ).

??   since when weren't the Pelasgoi Greek??..  they were one of the earliest Greek tribes.  Where do you think Ellas was derived from!! hehe

Pelasgian
c.1490, "of the Pelasgi," from L. Pelasgius, from Gk. Pelasgios "of the Pelasgi," from Pelasgoi "the Pelasgi," name of a prehistoric people of Greece and Asia Minor who occupied Greece before the Hellenes, probably originally *Pelag-skoi, lit. "Sea-people" (see pelagic).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pelas&searchmode=none

since when were the Albanians 'sea people'

Originally posted by Anton OK, If you don't know, I'll tell you -- they don't have any territorial claims.

so we should rest easy, hey?
the territorial claims usually follow suit, depending on how well the historical claims go down!!

Originally posted by Anton Actually I made a mistake he wrote that Polybius call Thracians and Macedonians "omogenes".

That makes Thracians Greek too then.. hehehe

Originally posted by Istor the Macedonian For me, ethnic identity is showed by names, toponyms, language, and sharing values and claims.  It is proved by sacrificies one can do to prove his ethnicity. Fo rinstance, if someone is proud for get in life danger for defending Greeks' freedom and Greece's independance then he is Greek. Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. This means that I accept them as my Greek brothers. Whoever modern people do the same things, they are Greek for me.

Originally posted by Istor the Macedonian Slavic people who live in FYROM are not Macedonian; this is obvious.

Istor, I think there's a difference between a Hellenist/phil-hellene, like Lord Byron for instance, and a 'Greek' though.

I read the following in an article, and it pretty much supports my sentiments on the matter.

Modern Greeks are indeed directly descended from Ancient Greeks.
Their blood lines and lineage have never been in question until people with an agenda say otherwise to try and prove that Greeks are not really Greeks and that they are really Turks and/or Slavs� so all of Greece should not belong to those who call themselves Greek because there are no Greeks!
This sounds stupid (it is) but this is the kind of logic we are dealing
with.

Well, first off, Greeks know that their blood lines are not 100 percent pure. This not only applies to Greece but for all nations around the globe. I'll go one further than that�Ancient Greeks were not pure either. I'm sure they had the blood lines of others in their gene pool as well at some point and time. Regardless, the majority of the ancient blood lineage was Greek, the same blood lineage that today's Greeks share.

Second, when (and I'll use a conservative number) 95% of the population
is descended from ancient times (it's probably closer to 98% but who
cares) why in the world are we talking about Greeks not being 'Greeks'?
Furthermore, regardless of the purity of the gene pool in terms of
percentages, WE ARE STILL THE DIRECT UNITERRUPTED DESCENDANTS OF
ANCIENT GREEKS! What, did all of the Ancient Greek genes get killed off?
Even if we make accommodations that Greeks have some Turkish/Slavic blood in their lineage, this does not change the fact that it represents small fraction (first appearing around 1000 years ago) of their overall lineage, the majority being derived directly from ancient times, namely the Hellenic race.

The point I am trying to make here is that all ethnic groups in the
region (for the most part) did not inter-marry, intertwine socially or
culturally, cohabitate with anybody other than their own kind. Greeks
stayed with Greeks, Turks stayed with Turks, Slavs stayed with Slavs
and so on. Given this, how can anybody come to the conclusion that Greeks
are not really 'Greeks'? Where did the ancient blood lines go?
Did they just get up and walk away into oblivion? That is so absurd!
Again, what we have here is a classic case of historical revisionism.
That is, trying to steal someone else's history, while denying that others exist
(or more precisely, not descended from the ancients to whom the history
belongs to).

All of this is being done to try and win international support for this
'phantom thesis' that today's Greeks are not real 'Greeks'.
The reason behind their motives are simple: If they can persuade the
U.S. or the U.K., by doing so, it can and most likely will weaken the
Hellenic State internationally to the point of where land claims will
heard against the state by 'minority groups' and quite possibly leading
to the breakup of the Hellenic State as we know it.

Their attempts are and will be unsuccessful because you cannot wipe out
the fact that first, Greeks have never left the area and that we were
here long before the likes of the Turks or the Slavs. Two, history is
on our side. How in the world can you change recorded actual and factual
history, proven without any doubt, throughout the last 5000 years?
You can't. This alas, is their Achilles heel�oops wasn't he Greek as well

When Isocrates made his famous statement in his Panegyricus about 'the
name of Greek no longer counting as that of a stock, but as that of a
type of mind...designating those who share with us (biological Greeks)
in our culture, rather than those who share in a common physical type',
it must not be taken out of context by people pretending to strip away
the importance of a Greek nation.

The context of his statement was the wide gulf between Athenian (and Greek) intellectual and artistic achievement, and that of foreign peoples. 'The pupils of our masters, are the teachers of others', he goes on to say.

Although Isocrates loosely accepted as 'Greeks' those people of foreign stock who sought to enlighten and enrich themselves with Greek culture, we should not wildly extrapolate that anybody who today avidly indulges in modern Greek cuisine, music and dance can justifiably call himself Greek, but a Hellenist.. there's a difference.

Modern Greeks define themselves by their lineage and religion. Unlike
America which has no strong ethnic or cultural identity of its own, and
where people who reside there can rightfully be deemed Americans, in
Greece, foreign peoples are merely Greek citizens, and this by no means
qualifies them as 'Greeks' in every sense of the word.

Another excerpt;

From ancient Greece the Greeks have inherited a sophisticated culture
and a language that has been documented for almost three millennia .
Modern Greek is recognizably the same as the language of Athens under
Pericles in the 5th century BC. Few languages can demonstrate such
continuity.

Herodotus states that the Athenians declared, before the battle of
Plataea, that they would not go over to Mardonius, because in the first
place, they were bound to avenge the burning of the Acropolis; and,
secondly, they would not betray their fellow Greeks, to whom they were
bound by:

A common language (homoglosson � the use of one of the dialects of
the Greek language),
Common blood (homaimon � descent from Hellen, son of Deucalion),
Common shrines, statues and sacrifices (practice of the ancient Greek
religion � compare the Christian Greek and Demotic term omothriskon),
and Common habits and customs.

DISCLAIMER:  I am not espousing racial supremacy here either, or racial hatred for that matter!!!

it is not bad to be descendant of Greece. If our neighbors want to be descendants of ancient greeks it is good. But they should first deny their ethnicity(slav or Albanian). The ask for the Greek government to teach them the greek civilization. Ellin don't try to persuade them. It is proovely (latest by your posts) that they are not descendants of greeks or Ancient greek macedonians. So don't try any more. They have never accept that they are wrong. THey don't care for history
by the way nice post. Very good
    

Edited by perikles - 02-Oct-2006 at 03:12