Geography of the Imperial Age

What was new in the Vasco da Gama expedition? I mean as a nautical and epic achievement: the way he went to the middle of south atlantic and discover the system of wind in that area. A large turn to gain good wind and in the retourning more direct in south and stop in Azores… It was the voyage more long without visit land –the first voyage with sailors that began to suffer from scurvy. The expeditions of Cão and Dias were always by the coast. This rout was called by the Portuguese a volta do mar (something like retourning of the sea). In the next expeditions was discover Brasil (and then explore) and south atlantic islands like Tristão da Cunha (name of a navigator) and Santa Helena. As you see this was a planned effort that includes ways to planned the navigation in the southern skies, as Camões said “we also discover new skies”

Cabral was sent after Gama but his fleet lost from each other… in this voyage Diogo Dias brother of Bartolomeu Dias (that died in this expedition) land in Madagascar. many other islands and places were then reach by the Portuguese: Ceylan by D Lourenço de Almeida; Sequeira in Malaca; otherers to Indonesian island – Portugal settled in Timor in XVI. Then south China – Macau was a free city in XVI almost an independent one. And then portuguese were the first Europeans to arrive Japan. Fernão Mendes Pinto wrote a large book about is adventures in that areas. In the XVI many Portuguese run away from official rules and began to explore by themselves, sometimes they became rulers of local cities, explore Tibet and other areas in the interior (for instance Bento de Góis). Brazilian coast was then explore by Duarte Pacheco Pereira, Estevão de Sá, Dias de Soli (an Italian man) and Vespucio (under the orders of Spanish and Portuguese kings).

I hope I am not being boring. In next posts I´ll talk about Portuguese explorers in the service of Spain and about Portuguese cartography in the XV and beginning of XVI.

Best regards

Edited by pedrocalcoen - 14-Apr-2012 at 10:47

A large part of what we think we know about the Peri Reis charts or portolans, was inspired by Dr. Charles Hopgood's book, entitled "Maps of Ancient Sea-Kings", or something to that effect. You must be aware that just because something receives a date, like the date of the Piri Reis map, purporting to show the coast line of S. American and the hidden shore-line of Antartica, can well be either fakes or mis-dated by centuries. Whilst Hopgood makes a claim that the Antartic coast line shown in the chart closely matches that of moder geodetic surveys of the coast line hidden by ice, etc., is up to scholarly debate, but I would really suggest that the similarities are only vaguely alike or a product of mere chance!
You must realize that almost all "originals" of any document are not available now nor have most of them been available for many centuries, what we mostly have today are copies of copies, etc.! Along with claims, after claims, etc. that cannot be proven!

But, the Hopgood book is a good read, nontheless!
Note, he has also written a good deal, I hear, about the unfolding time called mostly "12-12-2012", which some nuts proport to be the end of the world!
Just as there might exist a "bit of fact" within fables, so there is sometimes likely to exist a bit of "fact" within Science Fiction or fiction in general.

Too many posts trying to claim Piri Reis' work as their nation's 

Hi, i'm here again.

Thanks, can you also talk about the Spanish explorations when the routes were not yet known?

Yes of course. In fact, the more famous voyages of the XV-XVI centuries was exploring new routes as Col�n, Bartolom� D�as and Vasco da Gama. Here we have three points: the place from where you begin the travel and finally the place where you want arrive; in the middle how you could go from one point to another, that is the Winds. The entire age of explorations, the nature of the voyages are conditionated by Eolus, in the northern hemisphere the winds (and sea streams) turn following the clock, that is for example from western Europe along the coast of North �frica crossing the ocean between Canary Islands and Cape Verde to the Caribbean sea, from here from the M�xico Gulf to New England and from here to Western Europe again; in the southern ocean contrary the wind and sea streams turn counter the clock from South �frica to Guinea Gulf, from here to north Brasil then go down to Argentia and from here again to South �frica. This is equal for the others oceans with exceptions: for example the navigation in the Indic oceans are conditionated by the Monsons and there the Bengal Gulf and the Arabic sea had winds-sea streams turning with the clock, contrary to the entire Indic ocean.

Col�n knew about the navigation's conditions on the eastern Atlantic ocean and knew exactly from where he must take the winds for go to the west. Curiously, and probably because he was a good sailor (althought a crazy man) he could take at the first attempt the route for come back to Europe, althought the best route for go to Am�rica (followed by the treasure fleets in the XVI century) was lightly to the south of his first voyage route, in the middle of Canary Islands and Cape Verde to Lesser Antilles, and not from Canary islands direct to Cuba, and not from Cape Verde to Trinidad like in his third voyage.

Contrary, the spanish in the Pacific had a lot of problems triying to stablish a route across the Pacific ocean, from Am�rica to Phillipines and spice's islands, from here to Am�rica again. No problem with the first point, going from Am�rica to Asia, but at the moment that they was there was impossible for 40 years take a good way for come back, all the expeditions failed to take the route because the complicated system of islands, winds and sea in actual Indonesia and Phillipines: many of they sunk there as the expedition of Villalobos in the 40's,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_L%C3%B3pez_de_Villalobos

many more must came back to... Europe (this the case of the expedition of Magellan and Elcano), a few tryed to go counter  the wind (succesfully, but finished the travel totally tired if i remember well) and finally in the 60's of the XVI century Urdaneta stablished a good route following the Kuro Shivo sea stream and winds: he went to north until Japan, then a few milles north of Hawaii across the Pacific ocean to western coast of USA and from there to Acapulco.

This is the way that the spanish could to stablish the routes that they followed along three centuries.

Tomorrow: the portugueses.

Edited. I put a few more information.


Edited by Ikki - 24-Sep-2006 at 11:17

Yes of course, one of the greatest was the expedition of Sebasti�n Vizca�no to North Am�rica in 1602. The galleon of Manila come back from Orient directly from more or less Japan to north California in a voyage of 6 months (7-9 to Acapulco) So because the crews and the own ship need to rest and provisions, the viceroy of New Spain sent an expedition with the only purpose of explore the pacific coast of actual USA for help to the galleons. In previous years the spanish tried to explore there with the expeditios of Cort�s in Baja California and Cabrillo in 1542; then because the galleon of Manila saw this coast and they couldn't approach, Vizca�no went there.

Vizca�no went to California with cartographers, landing there and fighting with natives, they went until the actual state of Oreg�n and maped the main points of the californian coast. Unfortunatelly, the traders of the Manila galleon don't want use his maps and recommendations, because they didn't want that the crew lost any time before landing in Acapulco . There are other examples on the caribean sea but i havn't details.

In the dutch side, you have to the own Tasman.

Be careful, we are talking when the trade routes was more or less stablished, but don't forget that at the beginning the same ship that was exploring was a trade ship, so you have the portuguese in actual Indonesia searching the spice's islands and at the same time trading.



About "Terra Australis", counting the expeditions of Tasman you must consider too the less known, but not less wonderful, spanish (i know, again the spanish expeditions , sorry) expeditions of Menda�a, Fern�ndez de Quir�s and Torres (these last two portuguese under spanish service), with the only purpose of discover the southern continent, discovering a lot of pacific islands that is

�lvaro de Menda�a, 1567-1569
�lvaro de Menda�a and Fern�ndez de Quir�s, 1595-1596
Luis V�ez de Torres and Fern�ndez de Quir�s, 1605-1607

http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/torres.html


I forget it, Tasman maped the NW coast of Australia




Edited by Ikki - 13-Sep-2006 at 12:11

I'm here again.

Reunion was discovered too by the portuguese, in fact, very few islands of the Indic ocean was discovered by the dutch althought i don't know others more in the middle. As you see, Mauritius, Reunion and Madagascar are near from the main portuguese route with India but they never settled there; contrary, the dutch althought they don't discovered those islads began to exploit it (i'm remembering Mauritius)

8) Were sailors of certain nations willing to die for their secrets of new lands and routes there? How well were these secrets kept?

The entire naval world was shielded by secrets and prohibitions, not only the routes but for example (and specially) the naval building. I don't know if portuguese and dutch punish to their crews, but specially the portuguese sailors and captains had forbided to say to foreigners the naval routes between Portugal and East India, not only that, but others traders couldn't go there (if the portuguese could stop them of course).

Contrary i know better the spanish side of the question: when they stablished the convoy routes between Spain and Am�rica, and between Am�rica and Phillipines islands, was totally prohibited to say the main points of the travel to anybody, more, the captains of the annual fleets was provided with a letter in Spain that couldn't be open until the departure of the fleet, when in the middle of the sea they could open it. In this letter they had the course stablished for the fleet, and was punished with the DEATH to say anything to other ships in the route.

11) How well did the 16th century ships withstand ice and cold waters? How long could a ship sail northwards and come yet back? What were the skills of sailing in such regions? How fast were most ships?

I don't know the first twoe questions, althought explorers like Barents explored Svalvard, i think this cause your ask number 9.

But, with the exception of ice, iceberg etc a cold water is not a problem for the ship, contrary, the usual travel to tropical seas is very dangerous because there appeared the so called in spanish "broma", a parasite that eat the tables of the ships so each year the ships must be restored.

The speed of a ship change according with many points: type of ship, winds, storms, crew... For example the treasure fleet of the spanish across the Atlantic or the Manila Galleon had a speed of 3 knots (4.000 km in 30 days and 11.000 km in 3 months); but the warrior fleets of the same spanish could trable about 6-7 knots, and the more fasters ships like the carabels or the pinnaces at 10-12 knots or more, take for example the carabel La Pinta the fastest of the first Columbus voyage, who could travel (trully, flying!) to more than 13 knots (15 milles per hour)

And, when the ship was on sea, they saw a distant land and they headed that way or continued on their current course? So basically, did they allow new routes be taken to go on some certain lands?

That depend of two points: your fleet is a trade fleet, your fleet is a military-exploration fleet. As you are suspecting according with previous information, in the case of the spanish under any condition the trade fleets could go to explore anything, the route was the only route and into the fleets there were agents of the King for guarantee the ordinances; of course this can be explained because the extreme importance of the cargoes, and the consequent care of kings and traders; in an extreme position, the traders of the Manila Galleon opposed to ANY change in the route by 3 centuries, althought many sailors proposed better routes.
When they saw any strange thing (islands, storms, foreigners assents) they take notes ot the position and when they arrived to Spain say it to the institution (Casa de Indias-House of Indias), the Casa to the King, and if they were interest they sent a military expidition; contrary to a popular view, the spanish sent many explorer-military expeditions because this. In certain cases, for examples the treausre fleet of the Atlantic, when they had interest sent fast ships like pinnaces for explore, mainly because security questions.

Althought i don't know with details the examples of portuguese and dutch fleets, was more or less similar.


Edited by Ikki - 12-Sep-2006 at 13:15

Originally posted by rider Great, I knew you could help. So the Ottomans had geographs. Interesting, althoguh my knowledge on the more well known Arabian ones is too bordered with al-Idrisi and ibn Battuta. Very well, were there any other significant Ottomans in that type of science?

Great, but this can pose other questions. Leaving them for now, but:

Did the Dutch discover the Indian Ocean's islands too? Reunion and others, I mean they were in the middle of the ocean (almost) and so only accidents could take people there.

And, when the ship was on sea, they saw a distant land and they headed that way or continued on their current course? So basically, did they allow new routes be taken to go on some certain lands?

!) Has anyone during the 16-18th century period charted the NZ, Australia coastline (sailed around them)?

Yep, Ikki is right, they definetly didn't know about Novaja Zemilija during that period. That can't be from the 16th century, it is way (!!!) too accurate.

Thanks, Ikki, I was looking forward for a post by a person like you (that has joined on the 31st of December). BTW, I looked at the Wikipedia page and it seemed a little 'rusty' to me, seeing so few persons there and they mostly don't have good descriptions.

Also, many maps put a continent to the south to prove the legend of Terra Australis Incognita (which is a name I have quite started to like). Now, to improve the answered questions' status, I must pose these (also will edit the primary post):

6) Who were the first people to see Australia, Tasmania, Ceylon, New Zealand and Mauritius, Madagascar of the European nations? Did the explorers move there by rumours or were they accidental happenings?

7) Why did the Russian Empire (and other Empires) hire so many foreigner explorers?

8) Were sailors of certain nations willing to die for their secrets of new lands and routes there? How well were these secrets kept?

9) When was Svalbard discovered? Wikipedia says that 12th century by Rus and Vikings, but also that Barents in 1596 discovered it? When did Svalbard become known to other countries?

10) How quickly did rumours of new discoveries spread in Europe? Let us say that Cook discovers new lands at Australia: when would the King or Queen of England (presumably in London or Windsor) learn of this?

11) How well did the 16th century ships withstand ice and cold waters? How long could a ship sail northwards and come yet back? What were the skills of sailing in such regions? How fast were most ships?

Great, thanks. Did you know by the way that Columbus used a later reprinting of these maps on his voyages amongst others?

Now what do you say on my Atlantis' idea about the cartographers of Antarctica? But another question:


If we do know that Antarctica was charted during that period, then how did the charts survive till the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and others recopied them?