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Ancient & modern Greeks
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Arbr Z 
Colonel 
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 598 |
 Topic: Ancient & modern GreeksPosted: 08-Sep-2006 at 10:30 |
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And now, apparently, a vlach (a distinguished one) doesnt know what he is. He has to be instructed by pericles, who knows what vlachs are, and knows that their language is some kind of ancient greek Do not impose history and culture, listen what the people have to say about theirselves To the administrators: Btw, is there a filter for joining?The cultural level is reaching a minimum on this forum (with all the respect)
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Prej heshtjes...!
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perikles
Consul 
Joined: 28-Jul-2006 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 373 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 10:32 |
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Yes I know because i come from Ipeirous. From the city of Ioannina and i know how the vlachs talk, behave and what they think.
I have cousins leaving in Kalarites (Huge VLach village) and been married with Vlachs. How you know so much for Vlachs. I believe from school or from Albanian university?
Where do you live? Arber Z? Edited by perikles - 08-Sep-2006 at 10:33 |
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Samos national guard.
260 days left. |
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perikles
Consul
Joined: 28-Jul-2006 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 373 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 10:34 |
I agree with that.
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Samos national guard.
260 days left. |
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Patrinos
Baron 
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:06 |
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Arber Z i was expecting persons like you in this forum.
www.vlachophiles.net is a site of the vlachs of Greece who accepted the romanian propaganda in the begining of the century and left Greece and went to Romania and then as immigrants went to US and France. Make a tour in the sites of the arumanian assosiatons in Greece and see the clear way that they declare their Greekness (they oppose to call them minority).
There isn't a relations between Albanians and Aromanians,there is a link between Albanians and Romanians linguistically. (http://www.answers.com/topic/origin-of-albanians) This relation between you two shows that the albanian origins can be traced near present day Romania. Can you through albanian give a meaning to messapic inscriptions?
And a question to you Arber Z: If you said the word Illyrian to an Albanian in the 19th century how would he react? Would he know this word?
And if you are of Illyrian origin why are you pride of that? What have they contributed to the word's civilisation? The only ancient monument in today Albania are Greek temples, theaters and cities in the coastal areas.
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perikles
Consul
Joined: 28-Jul-2006 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 373 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:22 |
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Samos national guard.
260 days left. |
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akritas
Chieftain 
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:27 |
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Well said Patrinos.
Arber your side is a propagndistic site from the Romanian Vlachs.
The Greek Vlachs have own side
As also there is and the known Vlach side
that express all the opinions of Vlachs (Romanian and Greek).Not of course the propagandisticis like vlachophiles www
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xristar
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Nov-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 1028 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:28 |
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Arber, first don't take so seriously some things. You are insulting people when you ask for filter in joining, because the level becomes low.
Second, the truth is that the vlachs as also the arvanites, in Greece, have never developed some sort of separate than Greek identity. I mean that if you call a vlach 'non-greek' he will be insulted. It is not the Greek state that obliges the vlachs to become greeks. Even the italian and romanian efforts in WWII and earlier (in early 20th cent) were totally fruitless, even though practically unopposed. I mean compare this to the wars and the massacres between Greeks and Slavs (Bulgarians) in Macedonia, trying to take the population with one side.
Of course apparently the vlachic language is not some sort of ancient Greek, but that doesn't make the vlachs not Greeks, at least as long as they feel Greeks.
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Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:33 |
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maybe we should ask a Vlach to whom would he like to be related to .. to US THE MIGHTY GREEKS as my albanian ceasar(...)said or to the bringers of love peace and prosperity to Kosovo..the albanians..
klevoume dyo avga...
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Arbr Z
Colonel
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 598 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 12:13 |
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I am answering only to Xristar, the only who made a question, actually. When I asked a filter for joining, I didnt specify a member, and I didnt generalize, so you personally shouldnt be offended. But, please, hearing someone who says that the Vlach language is some kind of ancient greek language... To the others, I never mentioned Illyria on this thread, nor did i mention albania. I said read what do the vlachs think of their culture and their relation with the greek and albanian cultures. And to the "intelligent guy" who says what pride can I take from the illyrians, I have to remind that unfortunately for him, this is a historical, and cultural forum, we are not discussing our pride, but the history. I cannot be proud of nothing else but me and my family, and believe me, I have what to be proud for. I study the history for scientific reasons (TO KNOW) and not for finding a reason to be proud (poor he who does so). To an albanian in the XVIII cent, probably the word Illyrian would not make any sense, but what sense would make the word Hellene (Greek) to a romios? Regarding the other posts, does anybody have anything against albania-albanians? Is this just racism and propaganda? Who brought war to Kosova? But you, people, do not surprise me anymore. Patrinos, you expected to find persons like me?What do you mean with this?What kind of persons are this persons like me? Where are the moderators, if I broke any rule, ban me, but I do not see a logic behind this persons offending my country and my personal dignity! P.S. this vlachs are saying what they believe true, and in this site you can find many folkloristic data in their language. Also in their folkloristic songs (which date before the XIX cent) you can state what do they consider themselves, regarding their hellenism. If you say the folk songs are propaganda then...
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Arbr Z
Colonel
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 598 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 12:29 |
Akrita, I visited both sites before, as I am completing a paper on the vlachs culture, and their assimilation. But have a look at the websites, in the first one, vlachs.gr there is this passage in the end:
When I used to go to my mothers village in Roumlouki, I remember how my Grekos grandad, barba-Dziordzi, would ask me: What are you, lad, a Romios or a Vlahos?. And in Veria, my Vlach grandad, lala-Steryios, would ask me in Vlach: Tse hi tini, Armin ia Grek? (What are you, an Aroumanian or a Grekos?). And, anxious not to disappoint either of them, I would give each the answer he wanted to hear. It was years later that I realised that they both wanted me to say the same thing, but each wanted to hear it in his own language
Do you think that a greek might ask his grand-son (koukoudis) if he is greek or greek?I believe there is a serious distinction between greek and vlach. But this Koukoudis, as he accepts it himself, is used to give different answers to different people.
Im the second site, farsarotul.org there is also controversial data. And in one of the abstracts they say that the majority of the vlachs decide to call themselves greek. I can state the same in albania, the majority of the vlachs decide to call themselves albanians, and they dont even speak vlach anymore. So, if you would be kind and answer, do they exist at all, because if those who reside in greece are greeks, and those who reside in albania are albanians, then there are no vlachs at all.
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Prej heshtjes...!
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 12:44 |
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Did you read the all article.?
 ......Read more
The Vlachs and the Greki may be two separate linguistic groups, but the rest of their cultural differences, at least in the areas where theyve been in constant contact for centuries, have probably never been of great significance, indeed have been a negligible factor in their cohabitation and their shared history
In conclusion, it must be stressed that the Vlach Greeks, like their relations beyond the Greek borders, desire peace, prosperity, and progress more than anything else, and are entitled at the very least to our interest, understanding, and affection.
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Patrinos
Baron
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 13:13 |
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Arber Z i suggest you to look at this:http://www.answers.com/topic/names-of-the-greeks It isn't bad to study your history and in the same time be proud of your it. Of course your history must have something to be proud of so i understand you. As for the Vlachs it is logical to feel a little bit different from the rest of Greeks just as Tsakonians, Pontians, Sarakatsanians do,linguistically only.Ethnically there is no doubt about their patriotism.
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nikodemos
Shogun 
Joined: 24-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 248 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 16:47 |
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Why a thread about the continuity of the Greek population has ended up in adiscussion about who are the vlachs? Some people have hijacked this thread.
In Greece,those who speak this language are estimated to be less than 20.000.A number which consists mainly of elder people.So in a few years they will be even less. |
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Patrinos
Baron
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 17:19 |
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You are right nikodeme, the discussion has deviated. Maybe our neighbooring friends know the historical truth so they don't want to say anything positive for our nation.
To rekindle the conversetion, what about the slavic settlements in Greece?
Can a nation replace another and leave only 30 words in its vocabulary?
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Arbr Z
Colonel
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 598 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 17:42 |
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In Greece,those who speak this language are estimated to be less than 20.000.A number which consists mainly of elder people.So in a few years they will be even less.
This is assimilation, and as a student (and admirer) of different cultures I am used to contrast assimilation, which to me is a very negative process.
Now could you, dear neighbours quote me in a single post where I didnt show respect to the greek culture. That would be very hypocrite from me, cause from the many cultures I respect and admire, the greek culture, and the greek people occupy a special place. You wouldnt believe me, but I have many nice greek friends, and I visit Greece with pleasure (for historical tourism). But apparently some of you are full of prejudices, ant cannot understand that I do not hate greece.
Regarding the vlachs of greece, it is true they are a part of the modern greek nation, as the vlachs of albania are a part of the modern albanian nation. But historically they differed, at least culturally. They had nomadic societies, and used a very different language. their habits were also different. Traditionally they belong to a different ethnic group. Of course, with their free will, they now are greek patriots in greece, albanian patriots, in albania, and romanian patriots in romania...
For Patrinos, I have to repeat, my pride doesnt hide in history. I belong to a very proud family, I can trace my parents back to 1650. But I do not feel proud of nothing else, but my self, my close actual family, and my country. History is my scientific passion, not my pride. If you look at history as something to be proud of, then you will not be impartial, you will denigrate the others, and you will overestimate the yours. You will never be willing to accept negative parts of your history, if you look at it with love and nationallistic pride.
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Patrinos
Baron
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 18:03 |
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Linguistic assimilation of Arumanians is the result of the interior imigration and not because of the Greek state's interference, by the same reason greek speaking groups don't use their special dialects nowdays ,which in addition are much more archaic from the official greek language. Arber i don't understand how can you be proud of your country and no proud of your history. Maybe we mean the same thing so it is better to stop this and discuss the thread's subject.
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xristar
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Nov-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 1028 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 04:01 |
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How can you trace back your family to 1650?
With great difficulty I traced my family to early 19th century
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Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
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Aster Thrax Eupator
Suspended
Suspended Joined: 18-Jul-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1929 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 05:46 |
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I don't think that every single Greek can say that they are definatley decendants. Roughly, yes. Surely, no.
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Patrinos
Baron
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Location: Moreas Online Status: Offline Posts: 473 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 09:58 |
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You are right Earl Aster, we must base our conversation to a logical base. No one here claims that we are 100% pure descents of the ancient ones.
And about the slavic issue the only areas where they settled finaly(after the byzantine reducing politics) more thickly were the west Taugetus(Milingoi was the name of this slavic tribe)(Lakonia), South Gortys(Arcadia) and in a group of villages(8-10) in the Aroania mountains of Achaia where untill today we call them Nezerochoria( means: the villages of the Nezerites,one of the two slavic tribes who came to Greece).In the rest of Greece they could be traced in high mountains isolated small villages.
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Ey_Iran
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 05-Sep-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 10:18 |
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I wanted to share some funny thing about the turks that arrived 800 years ago, they think that.
Ancient Sumeria was Turkish. The culture of the ancient Greece and Anatolia is Turkish in origin. The Etruscans of pre-Roman Italy were Turks. |
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=)
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