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Finest Army of the 20th Century

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Poll Question: Japanese Army 1905
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [1.89%]
15 [5.68%]
77 [29.17%]
61 [23.11%]
82 [31.06%]
21 [7.95%]
3 [1.14%]
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Cryptic View Drop Down
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finest Army of the 20th Century
    Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 18:48
It is unfortunate that they have passed away.
 
Are the photos in Czechoslovakia  from before WWII, maybe a training mission with the Czechoslovakians?  Also, was your grandfather in a cavalry unit (sabre and horse)?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 19:23
I don't think that anyone with a desire to know the past, could ever denigrate special units or entire divisions of patritots who fought as cleverly and as strongly as other groups are reported to have fought in the distant past! Bravery, or foolhardyness, as it might be, are never to be questioned past a point! In every battle, both great or small, there always existed that "special" or unique soldier or unit, or division, etc. that went "beyond the call of duty!"

The so called "Spartans" have a lot of fellow travellers!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2010 at 02:19
Originally posted by Cryptic

It is unfortunate that they have passed away.
 
Are the photos in Czechoslovakia  from before WWII, maybe a training mission with the Czechoslovakians?  Also, was your grandfather in a cavalry unit (sabre and horse)?
 
No. In 1919-1920 when Poland was fighting bloody war against Soviet Union, Czechoslovakian army took small territory on the Polish - Czechoslovakian border, which was inhabitated by both nations Poles and Czechs. Poland couldnt react because Soviet troops under command of marshals Tukatchevski and Budyonny were coming close to Warsaw and Lvov. After Soviet Union was defeated Poland sent troops toward Czechoslovakia but in result of french mediation was signed peace treaty that left most of territories grabbed by Czechs in their hands. So when in 1938 Hitler took over Czechoslovakia, Polish goverment made unfortunate move and sent Polish army to take this territory back and my granfather was one of the soldiers who took part in this operation. Not only Poles but also Hugarians sent their troops to ocuppy part of Czechoslovakia. This is a black card in the history of both Poland and Hungary, that both countries invaded Czechoslovakia together with Germany.
 
My grandfather in Polish army was in the horse artillery. In the German army, on the begining was in the infantry but later Germans moved him to their horse artillery as well (on the eastern front).
 
In polish artillery he was in the baterry of the The Canon de 155 C modèle 1917 Schneider which was also used by Americans, Germans and many other countries.
 


Edited by Mosquito - 01-Jul-2010 at 03:36
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Maximus Germanicus I View Drop Down
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 02:08
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Cryptic

 
I do not think that is accurate.  When Germany attacked the western allies in 1940, the British, French, Dutch, Norweigans etc were attacked by the best troops the Germans had.  Many of these units were then shifted to attack the Soviet Union. Even then, the Germans sent one of their best (Rommel) and high quality German divisions to North Africa.
 
For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
France / Belgium 1944: Western allies faced the entire German armed forces from elite SS and army divisions, paratroopers to second or third string garrison divisions including batalions of very unenthusiastic "Germanized" Poles.
 
Italy 1943-45: The Germans sent a high quality commander (Kesserling), paratroopers and other high quality divisions as well as average divisions.  
 
 
Actually I think it was quite accurate. Soviet Union did fight against 90% of German army. And so called unethusiastic "Germanised Poles" fought on all German fronts. There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front. In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets, beliving almost to the end that sooner or later western allies will sign peacetreaty with them and join them against fighting Soviets.
 
That is incorrect
 
QUOTE=Mosquito] 
 
A classic shortsighted american viev, Im not enthusiast of Stalin, Soviets and their army but the credit must be given to those who earned it. Russians fought in Europe against 80% of all German forces while western allied faced 20% of them.
 
 
[/QUOTE]
 
Which is it 80% or 90% Mosquito? It really doesn't matter becuase they are both wrong.
 
I would recalculate your Numbers if I were you. You are incorrect, the German numbers that I have seen are in reality 5.5 million. The Russians greatly exaggerated the numbers to make themselves look better with 2.5 million of other fronts that is about oh 68/32 however you figure in the force multiplier (troops dug in fortifications etc, etc you Know METT-TC) It gives the Germans aprox troop power of 11M on the east vs 12.5M in the west this figures that an Army in retrograde is worth 2x1 vs an Army conducting defense in depth 5x1. So when you take into account military doctrine--The Western Allies had the harder row to hoe.
 
Once again- a mindless blunt offensive in the East vs an opponent in Retrograde all it takes is a blunt object that is an easy battle plan-I dare say Mosquito or Dodem could have led the Russians to victory.
 
The Western front- Hmm, A Beach head, LOTS, Airborne and Glider insertions against a well dug in enemy in difficult terrian. Did the Russian fight in the MTs-No they didn't, Did they contend with the hedgerows-No they didn't-They run across an already devestated eastern Europe. What they did does not require a great Army only a large Army (a large Army supplied by the US)
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Domen View Drop Down
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 15:22

The Western front- Hmm, A Beach head, LOTS, Airborne and Glider insertions against a well dug in enemy in difficult terrian. Did the Russian fight in the MTs-No they didn't, Did they contend with the hedgerows-No they didn't-They run across an already devestated eastern Europe. What they did does not require a great Army only a large Army (a large Army supplied by the US)

The Eastern front - hmm, large urban combats (Stalingrad for example), combats for Fortified Cities (Danzig, Gdynia, Kolberg, Dabie, Kostrzyn / Kostschin, Poznan / Posen, Breslau / Wroclaw), combats in the difficult (full of lakes, swamps and hills) and heavily fortified terrian of East Prussia (including the Fortified City of Konigsberg), Mountain Combats in the Caucasus, Moldova, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Romania, Balkans (Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece), several heavily defended river obstacles (Dnieper, Dnestr, Vistula, Bug, Oder), hilly terrian near Berlin (Seelow Heights). Combats in the area of Crimea (full of mountains and heavily fortified cities of Odessa and Sevastopol), offensives against German forces being conducted in extreme weather conditions (Winter), mighty fortifications of the Pommernstellung and the Meseritz Fortified Region. Ideal terrain for German tanks (for example Tigers and Panthers with their excellent long-range guns, useless in Bocage terrain of Normandy). Not mentioning the swampy (Polesie) and fortified area along the eastern Polish border of 1939 (those Polish fortifications were certainly used by the Germans in 1944).
 
 
Did the Russian fight in the MTs-No they didn't,
 
 
Let's see... they captured territories of Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, large part of Greece, Austria and Eastern Germany (not mentioning some combats in the Caucasus and south-eastern Ukraine area in 1942 and combats on Crimea) - so yes, they did:
 
 
And here you've got the area of Polish present day Warminsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship (large part of former East Prussia):
 
 
As you can see hilly terrain + a lot of lakes:
 
 
There were also many forests and powerful German fortifications there.
 
 
against a well dug in enemy in difficult terrian.
 
 
Just like Russians against Germans on the Eastern Front (especially in 1944 and 1945).
 
For example - map of fortifications existing in present-day Poland:
 
 
 
Blue - Polish (pre-1939)
Dark Red - German (pre-1939 and 1939 - 1945)
Violet - Austro-Hungarian (pre-1918)
Red - Russian (mainly pre-1918)
 
There were also mighty fortifications along the Polish eastern border of 1939 (present Ukraine and Belarus).

Fortifications of East Prussia and neighbouring areas (Northern Mazovia for example):
 
 
First map - built from 18th century to 1918.
Second map - built from 1919 to 1945 (you can click on the map to enlarge a certain area).
 
Red - German fortifications (Prussian on the first map)
Orange (green on the first map) - Russian fortifications
Blue - Polish fortifications
 
 
against a well dug in enemy
 
 
Photos from combats in East Prussia:
 
 
For example (if this is not well dug in then what is? LOL):
 

And:
 
 
Map of fortifications of Danzig (Gdansk) and Gdynia in 1945:
 
 
Translation of the map legend (in this order):
 
First line of fortifications
Second line of fortifications
Bolt (blocking) position
Additional defensive lines
Resistance nodes and points
Mines
 
Map taken from "maps of battles" section of this website:
 


Edited by Domen - 10-Jul-2010 at 16:16
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 02:11
 you say tanks on Okinawa / Iwo-Jima were not very useful against Japanese defence, so let's confront this statement with this data:

 

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=31191

 

The 713th Armor Battalion
(Provisional Flamethrower)

The Okinawa Campaign.

The flame tank had great psychological impact on the battlefield. According to the men on Okinawa, the armored flamethrower’s “value lies in its ability to drive the Jap out of his prepared positions into the open to be killed by supporting troops.

The results that the 713th Tank Battalion achieved on Okinawa during the period 7 April to 30 June 1945 were incredible. The battalion was credited with killing 4,788 and capturing 49 of the enemy, not including Japanese soldiers killed by escorting infantry or estimates of those trapped and sealed in caves or fortifications.

These figures, when balanced against the battalion’s losses of only seven men killed and one reported missing, speak to the flame tank’s destructive power as well as its survivability. Of the 54 tanks which began the operation, 41 were knocked out of action. Twenty-six of these were returned to duty.

On the last day of the operation, 30 June 1945, the battalion had 37 operational tanks and two others in maintenance (713th AAR, 6-38). The ingenuity and hard work of the mechanics had kept the battalion at over 70 percent strength after almost three months of combat. No mechanized flamethrowers could have been replaced considering that there were no others in the theater.

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  Quote vangelis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2017 at 18:33
Allthough all these armies one way or the other excelled in certain areas I will say the Wermacht.....because the task it took upon and the vast areas it fought (which ultimately caused it,s demise) can be compared only with a modern superpower....and even a modern day superpower can afford war on two or three small fronts...but not the size of the fronts Wermacht was fighting on......come on ....a German soldier  didn,t know how many thousands of miles away and in what shithole he was going to....familiar only to some military units of today...ring a bell?Wink


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