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Finest Army of the 20th Century

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Poll Question: Japanese Army 1905
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finest Army of the 20th Century
    Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 04:46
Originally posted by opuslola

I have read (don't remember the source or sources) that the Western armies, of the Americans, Brits, Canadians, Free French, etc., were not exposed to the "best and brightest" German troops! 
 
I do not think that is accurate.  When Germany attacked the western allies in 1940, the British, French, Dutch, Norweigans etc were attacked by the best troops the Germans had.  Many of these units were then shifted to attack the Soviet Union. Even then, the Germans sent one of their best (Rommel) and high quality German divisions to North Africa.
 
For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
France / Belgium 1944: Western allies faced the entire German armed forces from elite SS and army divisions, paratroopers to second or third string garrison divisions including batalions of very unenthusiastic "Germanized" Poles.
 
Italy 1943-45: The Germans sent a high quality commander (Kesserling), paratroopers and other high quality divisions as well as average divisions.  
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 28-Jun-2010 at 07:29
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 20:08
Good points made, but from who's sources?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2010 at 07:51
Originally posted by opuslola

Good points made, but from who's sources?
 
The sources are out there, but I do not have them with me.  WWII used to be my only historical interest and I read alot about the subject.
 
Just.... trust me.  But, I bet that you have heard that beforeWink
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2010 at 17:42
Ditto!
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 05:34
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
I do not think that is accurate.  When Germany attacked the western allies in 1940, the British, French, Dutch, Norweigans etc were attacked by the best troops the Germans had.  Many of these units were then shifted to attack the Soviet Union. Even then, the Germans sent one of their best (Rommel) and high quality German divisions to North Africa.
 
For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
France / Belgium 1944: Western allies faced the entire German armed forces from elite SS and army divisions, paratroopers to second or third string garrison divisions including batalions of very unenthusiastic "Germanized" Poles.
 
Italy 1943-45: The Germans sent a high quality commander (Kesserling), paratroopers and other high quality divisions as well as average divisions.  
 
 
Actually I think it was quite accurate. Soviet Union did fight against 90% of German army. And so called unethusiastic "Germanised Poles" fought on all German fronts. There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front. In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets, beliving almost to the end that sooner or later western allies will sign peacetreaty with them and join them against fighting Soviets.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 06:20
Originally posted by Mosquito

For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
Italian troops that fought on the eastern front were of better quality than those which fought in Italy and Africa. There were some elite fascist Italian troops including cavalry that succesfully charged with sabres Soviet infantry. You have also forgotten about good and well equipped Hungarian troops. And I wouldnt call all the Romanian soldiers unethusiastic. They really wanted to get back the land which Stalin stole from them after Poland was defeated.
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 06:38
If it comes to Waffen SS there were also units of very different quality within the Waffen SS.
 
In fact out of 38 Waffen SS divisions that existed in total, ONLY SEVERAL (up to 7 - 8, no more) can be considered as elite.

I'd say that only 1 "Leibstandarte" and 2 "Deutschland" SS divisions were elite (maybe also 5 "Viking", 9, 10, 23 "Nederland" & 28 "Wallonien"). 3 "Totenkopf" in theory was, but it's performance in 1940 and 1941 was poor, as I wrote above.
 
The remaining 30 - 31 divisions were either very average or just poor.

Soldiers of 11 "Nordland" division (mainly Scandinavian volunteers) were very brave but in many cases their division peformed poorly, mainly because of lack of experienced officers and general lack of training and experience among it's soldiers.


Edited by Domen - 29-Jun-2010 at 06:38
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 08:12
Originally posted by Mosquito

And I wouldnt call all the Romanian soldiers unethusiastic. They really wanted to get back the land which Stalin stole from them after Poland was defeated.
A large number were. Romania switched sides once the Germans began to lose.  In all probability, Romanian troops were more interested in fighting their Hungarian and Bulgarian "allies" than Soviets.
 
Originally posted by Mosquito

There were some elite fascist Italian troops including cavalry that succesfully charged with sabres Soviet infantry.
True, but most of the Italian conscripts in the 8th Army (Italian Army on the Don that completely collapsed during the Stalingrad offensives) were unreliable.
 
Mussolini should have followed Franco's example. Franco understood that Spanish society would not support sending large numbers of conscripts to the Soviet Front. Franco then sent one large division (Blue Division, 20,000 men) of 100% volunteers. The division performed very well and Franco was able to say that Spain was contributing.  
Originally posted by Mosquito

There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front.
That is very interesting. Perhaps you can tell us more about your grandfather.  Was he forced into the Wermacht because he spoke German, did he look "German", or was he just unlucky? Did he serve in garrison units on the Eastern Front or was he sent to the front lines as the Germans got desperate? 
 
Originally posted by Mosquito

In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets
True, but that was in the last few months of the war.  From June 1944 to March 1945, the allies faced the same quality ratio that the Russians faced.
Originally posted by Domen

If it comes to Waffen SS there were also units of very different quality within the Waffen SS.
Good point. SS units included SS Deutchland as well as the Albanian SS division


Edited by Cryptic - 29-Jun-2010 at 14:09
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 10:59
While I am not anywhere an expert in the quality of various German divisions that were sent to either the Western or Eastern fronts, I can only rely upon the descriptions of the average German faced by two of my uncles who fought in Europe, till the Wars end.

One was with the 82nd Airborne, and the other was a tank Captain with Patton's forces, one of the units that first crossed the Elbe River.

They both indicated to me that in general, the basic German grunt, was found to be either very young or very old! In other words 12 to 16 year old boys and sometimes girls, and 40-60 year old men!

Now, I know that a large portion of Germany's finest aged 18-30, had already been killed or wounded during the later parts of the war. But, the stories told to me by my uncles, tended to point out their thought that the cream of Germany was sent to the Eastern front!

This is also verified by other war reports, I have read, but cannot now find. Perhaps some of you have sources that might verify my remarks. And, perhaps not?

In any event it is important that we try to conceive of the idea that Germany was surrounded, and that its general staff, knew the end was only a matter of time. It might also be considered that this general staff also recognized that the greatest enemies of Germany were the Soviets, and not the Brits or Americans, etc.!

It merely seem common sense that these men would throw all they could against the Soviet, and sometimes even aid the Western armies?

Just look at the miles of territory Patton's forces were able to acheive compared to other armies?

My feeling is that the German High Command, literally tried their best to get Patton to Berlin before the Soviets!

As was written earlier'
"Originally posted by Mosquito

In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets."

Only politics seem to have stopped his run to Berlin!

I seem to remember that the Soviets reportedly had 100,000 pieces of artillery surrounding Berlin, and reportedly lost upwards of 100,000 men killed or wounded in the attempt!

German dead and wounded is probably not even estimateable?

Does anyone think that these same troops and their commanders whould have fought so gallantly against Patton, etc.?

ONLY POLITICS!

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jun-2010 at 11:05
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 12:04
Both Hitler and German officers who were in opposition to nazi rules in Germany belived that the worst threat are Soviets. Hitler to the end belived that western allies will recognise upcoming soviet danger and stop their attack against Germany or even aid him in his war against Soviet Union. One of his most famous attempts to destroy western - soviet alliance was finding the corpses of murdered Polish officers in Khatyn forest and making it a public affair, letting even the emissaries of Polish goverment in London to come and see everything.
 
Commander of German military inteligence service "ABWEHR" - Wilhelm Canaris was looking for british cooperation in removing Hitler from power even before the 2WW and during the war for any western help. He planned to kill or arrest Hitler and to sign peace treaty with the West. He did even conduct secret negotiations with Polish military intelligence (probably during WW2 the best world's secret intelligence service which had agents everywhere, from USA to Moscow) in which he promissed that after removing Hitler, if Polish army in the west will join German Army together with Polish underground army against  the Soviets, Poland will be restored with prewar borders. Canaris was probably meeting many times during the war with polish secret agent Klementyna Mankowska, where he acted as captain von Bonin, also officers of Abwehr with the permission of Canaris made a secret deal with Polish agent in France captain Roman Czerniawski who later played major role in the succes of D-Day. However not much is sure about all those secret operations because when in 1945 British authorites demanded from Polish goverment in the west the archives of Polish secret intelligence, the most important of them including the lists of secret agents were destroyed by the order of colonel Gano - the chief of polish intelligence department. Some archives were not destroyed nor given to British but hidden and discovered few years ago. They are today deposited in the Polish Institute and Sikorski Museum in London.


Edited by Mosquito - 29-Jun-2010 at 12:13
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 14:44
Yes, my (annoying, buzzing, biting, blood sucking insect), you seem to have found something?

It seems that Hitler (until right before his death), did think that the "warrior blood" of "fascism" did exist in the Western World!

It is even possible that the British Crown, let him feel such?

There was a King that seemed to be much closer to Hitler than us?

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jun-2010 at 14:48
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 15:41
You refer to Edward VIII
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 16:09
Of Course! I am sure you know that his leanings were attributed to be for the German side of the family? And, there was even the landing in Scotland of a very famous Nazi, that almost caused rebellion!

All of it is strange, but I would bet, by now, since I have little connection to late historical information, has at least been either explained or resolved?

Lots of strange things seemed to have happened from 1939 on?

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jun-2010 at 16:12
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 16:10
Originally posted by opuslola

Yes, my (annoying, buzzing, biting, blood sucking insect), you seem to have found something?

It seems that Hitler (until right before his death), did think that the "warrior blood" of "fascism" did exist in the Western World!

It is even possible that the British Crown, let him feel such?

There was a King that seemed to be much closer to Hitler than us?
 
Actually not i did find somthing but there are many historians who did. Most of things will remain unknown, many of the most interesting british WW2 archives remain top secret and will not be opened soon. What happend with Rudolph Hess, what happend with Himmler, what about secret negotiations between Churchill and husband of his relative in France, princess Jacqueline de Broglie?
 
Especially princess de Broglie is an interesting case. She was a cousin of Winston Churchill, british prime minister. She lived in France and during the war married with wermacht officer, captain Alfred Kraus. He was a secret agent of German secret intelligence. She also had a palace in England known as Donnington Hall, where Winston Churchill before became British PM was often her guest.
During the war princess became a member of French resistance and was often helping to save crews of allied air forces who were shot down in France. But in the same time her husband was copying the secret messages of resistance that she was helping to transfer. Many of secret messsages didnt even ever get to England because were earlier stopped by captain Kraus or were replaced by the fake messages producted by Abwehr. When Hitler resolved abwehr Kraus became the agent of SS which took over all the former agents of Abwehr, under the command of SS Brigadefuhrer Walter Schellenberg. Schellenberg belived that the only chance for Germany to survive the war is to end the war in the west and that western allies may sign peacetreaty with Germany if Hitler will bew removed and maybe he.... will become the chancellor of Germany. In 1944, after liberation of Paris, Kraus went to England wearing British uniform. Imidatelly after landing in England he was recived personally by Churchill. It seems that Kraus presented to Churchill Schellenberg's offer of peacetreaty what would allowe them to transfer all the forces from western europe to eastern front. The details of those negotiations are being kept in secret even today. One can ask, why would Churchill want to make peace with Germany. Well, the result of the war was sure, it was the game for postwar Europe. Soviet forces were getting close to Germany, Soviet Union had biggest army on earth with the state prepared for enormous war effort. The conquest of Germany by Soviet Union would mean that this army would be a 1000 km closer to the west than before the war. Churchill did never want to launch invasion in Normandy, instead of it a year earlier proposed invasion in blakans which would cut the road of the Red Army to west but Roosevelt, souerounded by pro soviet advisors didnt agree for it. And later when allied armies crossed Rhine river Roosevelt ordered even to slow their march toward Berlin. In such situation German offer might have been interesting for Churchill. Great Britain and USA would spare the life of thousands of soldiers and millions of dollars. Soviet forces maybe would have been hold or even driven back for few houndrieds kilometres. It was obvious that German Wermacht strenghtened by tens of divisions moved from western front to the east would give much bigger resistance to Red Army or at least slow its advance or make it cost much more blood. Germany, without Hitler would remain in western sphere of influence. What did Churchill answer to Kraus? The case became public when member of British parliament Edgar Granville demanded explanations about the presence in England of German officer who is wearing british uniform. Where from did he know about it? Was he informed about Kraus by Soviet intelligence? British minister of defence has has answered in the parliament that this German has been "stopped" (not arrested). What did he mean? Just after the war Kraus was finally arrested but was kept in the secret prison of British intelligence services in Ham Common. Next he dissapeared and years after the war it came out that he lives in Austria. What did he did for the British? If I remember well, the archives concerning Kraus and his staying in England will be not opened before year 2050 - if ever.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 16:48
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Originally posted by Mosquito

There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front.
That is very interesting. Perhaps you can tell us more about your grandfather.  Was he forced into the Wermacht because he spoke German, did he look "German", or was he just unlucky? Did he serve in garrison units on the Eastern Front or was he sent to the front lines as the Germans got desperate? 
 
 
Oh I was posting about my grandfather on AE forum many times in the past.
 
In 1939 my grandfather fought in Polish army against Germans. In 1941 he was drafted by Germans to Wehrmacht and as German soldier first stationed in Norway and next fought against Soviets till the begining of 1945 on the eastern front.
First Germans called the brother of my grandfather and tried to force him to sign volksliste. He did refuse. All his property was confiscated and given to newcoming German settlers. He himself was changed into slave labour and sent to Germany. When my grandfather came back from PoW camp Germans called him as well. They wanted him to sign volkslist. When he tried to refuse saying that he is Polish and is a Polish soldier, they answered that this territory was incorporated to Germany and all people living here are Germans and must be Germans, that if he refuse to sign his property will be also confiscated and he will be arrested and (no one know what next). Finally he agreed. Soon after he signed the list he was drafted to Wermacht.
 
My grandfather's first unit was 6th substitute batallion in Lubeck. When being a German soldiers, during holidays my grandfather found his brother and they made this picture. On the one picture you can see 2 brothers, one who refused to sign the list and became a slave with letter "P" (Pole) on his jacket, and second who did agree to sign the list and became German soldier.
 
On the other picture is my granfather in Polish uniform.
 
 
 
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote jafferinc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 04:36
I just read your finest army information and all of the according to their improvement and achievements i think it was great the army. But the most finest army is Pasdaran Iranian Revolutionary Guard 1982 which has been improved in the last few decades with a vast train fighters.

Edited by jafferinc - 04-Jul-2010 at 20:49
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 13:36
Not being a buff on WW2 I believe most of the Edward VIII stuff is explained but some mystery remains over Hess, more so as tho why he flew to scotland.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 17:41
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Oh I was posting about my grandfather on AE forum many times in the past.
Thanks for posting it again. It is an amazing story, especially with the pictures which "say 1,000 words".  
 
If you have not already done so, I would recommend recording their stories on DVD to preserve them (if they are still living).  The WWII generation is passing away fast and I am sure that future generations of your family would be interested in those stories.
 
 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 17:51
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Oh I was posting about my grandfather on AE forum many times in the past.
Thanks for posting it again. It is an amazing story, especially with the pictures which "say 1,000 words".  
 
If you have not already done so, I would recommend recording their stories on DVD to preserve them (if they are still living).  The WWII generation is passing away fast and I am sure that future generations of your family would be interested in those stories.
 
 
 
Unfortuntelly they both are dead. My grandfather died about 10 years ago.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 18:10
And here some more pics of my grandfather in the Polish army.
 
On the first picture my grandfather with he unit, he is the one in the center, with sabre. In his unit were mostly people of Polish nationality, 2 Jews and 1 Ukrainian.
 
 
And here on the parade, he is the one on the right side, sitting with 2 others:
 
 
And here on the horse in Czechoslovakia:
 
 
Another one in Czechoslovakia, he is the one in the bottom:
 
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 30-Jun-2010 at 18:45
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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