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In Balkans we have?

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Arbr Z View Drop Down
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In Balkans we have?
    Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 17:56

Menumorut makes a sense in his post.

@Akrita
The illyrians and the thracians bordered (this is just an expression, cause there were no clear borders) in the regions of todays eastern serbia, and northern FYROM (cause as you know, the ancient macedonia was more south than modern FYROM). There are many scientists supporting the idea of the linguistic and cultural similarities between illyrians and thracians.
 
@Nikodimo
In All Empires I have posted Illyrian words clearly linked with albanian, and I ll just type some right now
 
Enchelees - Ngjale (Eel)
Taulantis - Dalandyshe ( Swallow (bird))
Byllines - Pyll(Forest) but it could be also Buall (Bull)
Dalmates/Delmates - Dele/Delme (sheep)
Dassaretes/Dessaretes - Dash/Desh (ram)
Hyllus - Hylli(Star) - Hyu(god)
Bardhyles - Bardhe (White)+Yll (Star) (Whitestar)
Dardanes - Dardhe (Pear)
Lissus - Lis - (Oak tree)
Skodra - Kodra (Hill)
Ulcigno - Ulq (Wolves)
Scampinium/Scamba - Shkumba(foam)
 
And many others, I am not mentioning toponyms from the epirus region, because I do not want to through oil to the flame.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 10:35

Do Albanians have any connection to "Caucasian Albania"???

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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 20:17
Originally posted by Bulldog

Do Albanians have any connection to "Caucasian Albania"???

 
Albania has no relation to the Caucasian Albania, as Iberia has no relation to caucasian Iberia. Linguistically and culturally the people are totally different, and no relation has been found...
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 08:26
Why is the name the same??
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:43
Originally posted by Bulldog

Why is the name the same??
 
The names are the same for the same reason that scotland was named albania too. There is no logical link between the three places, Albania in scotland, Albania in the western balkans and Albania in the Caucasus.
 
As i mentioned before, one of the caucasian regions was once called iberia, but this doesnt mean that they are actually related to the iberian peninsula or to the iberians (spanish, portuguese or basque).
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  Quote GoldenBlood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:58
Originally posted by Bulldog

Why is the name the same??
 
some historians say that Illyrians foundet this area, some say Romaks (because capital of Roman was Alba Longa) ect.
 
Like Romaks when chanded name of Dacians >> Romanians (today Romania)
 
Albania term is Indo-Eurepoean Term but those Albania Caucas (they themself called Aghbania) are not Indo-European....
 
Like today Gipsys they themself call Roma or Romana...but they have not nothing with Ancient Romaks or today Romanians (Dacians)


Edited by GoldenBlood - 03-Sep-2006 at 13:01
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 07:44
Originally posted by Arbr Z

@Nikodimo
In All Empires I have posted Illyrian words clearly linked with albanian, and I ll just type some right now
 
Enchelees - Ngjale (Eel)
Taulantis - Dalandyshe ( Swallow (bird))
Byllines - Pyll(Forest) but it could be also Buall (Bull)
Dalmates/Delmates - Dele/Delme (sheep)
Dassaretes/Dessaretes - Dash/Desh (ram)
Hyllus - Hylli(Star) - Hyu(god)
Bardhyles - Bardhe (White)+Yll (Star) (Whitestar)
Dardanes - Dardhe (Pear)
Lissus - Lis - (Oak tree)
Skodra - Kodra (Hill)
Ulcigno - Ulq (Wolves)
Scampinium/Scamba - Shkumba(foam)
 
And many others, I am not mentioning toponyms from the epirus region, because I do not want to through oil to the flame.


I don't know if these toponyms and ethnonyms can be seen as reliable evidence.You see even the name of the Carpians can be linked with the Albanian word Karpe-rock.So,equally using the same way of thinking the Albanians can still be descendants of the Carpians.
I don't know how reliable is to link the name of a people with a meaning in your language.For example in Greek Rome would mean Power and Romani could mean the powerful but of course this is pure coincidence and the Romans were not GreeksBig smile
The same applies to the name of the Medians.In Greek med-omai means think or govern.It comes from the same root with other Indoeuropean languages,like Latin.So there is a meaning in Greek but of course the Medians were not GreeksLOL
What I want to say is that these cannot be regarded as strong evidence although it is an argument.
Btw,this is false
Byllines - Pyll(Forest) but it could be also Buall (Bull)
If all the Illyrian tribe ethnonyms had a meaning in Illyrian then definitely this is not the right etymology.Pyll comes from palludem(swamp),it is a loan word from the latin.Buall is a probably a loan word from Gothic,since this type exists only in Germanic languages.
What i personally believe is that trying to link the Albanians with the Illyrians or the Romanians with the Dacians is the same as writing a science fiction novel.That's my humble opinion.
I read much of the information that exists on the matter and I realised that many scholars doesn't accept this connection,like Wilkes for example.
Even wikipedia states that the problem of the origin of the Albanian people is not yet solved.
To me the Albanians are just Albanians,the Bulgarians just bulgarians and so on for all the Balkan people.For example us the Greeks,we are Greeks not Pelasgians.We appeared out of the darkness of history 4000 years ago and at that time the Greeks were nothing compared to the history of the Egyptians or the Assyrians.But slowly the Greeks created their own glorious history,as did many other people.
I cannot really understand why some Balkan people don't take pride in their identity and in their history and start raking the past in order to find the glorious ancestors that lived so many years ago.In fact the deeds of the Albanians since the time they appeared on the scene of history are more glorious than the deeds of the Illyrians.I really can't understand this pursuit for glorious (doubtful)ancestors and this crusade in order to prove that everybody is autochtonous.Why do some people think that way?Is it insecurity?Nobody is going to take their lands,even if their coming is recorded in history and they are not autochtonousBig smile
Is it a way to legalise claims on other countries?Then this is unacceptable and outrageous.History should not be the daughter of politics
I am sorry but i cannot understand this mentality.
P.S.the Greeks were also not autochtonous 4000 years ago when we came here,but with the time we built our own history on this blessed land.Why don't you do the same?After many years I hope no one will mix politics and history in the Balkans.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 08:30
Originally posted by nikodemos


To me the Albanians are just Albanians,the Bulgarians just bulgarians and so on for all the Balkan people.For example us the Greeks,we are Greeks not Pelasgians.We appeared out of the darkness of history 4000 years ago and at that time the Greeks were nothing compared to the history of the Egyptians or the Assyrians.But slowly the Greeks created their own glorious history,as did many other people.
I cannot really understand why some Balkan people don't take pride in their identity and in their history and start raking the past in order to find the glorious ancestors that lived so many years ago.In fact the deeds of the Albanians since the time they appeared on the scene of history are more glorious than the deeds of the Illyrians.I really can't understand this pursuit for glorious (doubtful)ancestors and this crusade in order to prove that everybody is autochtonous.Why do some people think that way?Is it insecurity?Nobody is going to take their lands,even if their coming is recorded in history and they are not autochtonousBig smile
Is it a way to legalise claims on other countries?Then this is unacceptable and outrageous.History should not be the daughter of politics
I am sorry but i cannot understand this mentality.
P.S.the Greeks were also not autochtonous 4000 years ago when we came here,but with the time we built our own history on this blessed land.Why don't you do the same?After many years I hope no one will mix politics and history in the Balkans.
 
 
If these are evidences you promised a month ago, they are not convincing Smile  If authochtonous population were not hellenized or killed by incoming populations of German, Slavic and other tribes, they were mixed and participated in development of culture of modern Balkan nations. As for your other insinuations -- no, these claims are to get our history true. And as for bulgarians, we are proud of our all our origins.  The things I do not understand is why greeks are so against that. And here is the possible answer -- they just want to have monopoly on all Balkan history Wink
 
And again, please stop post casuistic comments and start post arguments and referenece to sources.


Edited by Anton - 07-Sep-2006 at 13:43
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 13:26
I also am not fully convinced about Romanians being Dacians, and Albanians being Illyrians, but then a question arises: What are they? Apparently they are quite unique in their environment. I mean the Romanians speak a latin language in a region surrounded by slavs. Do we know any barbarian tribe that came at some time and settled there? And then how did it get latinized? The same for Albanians. How was the unique Albanian language created, if say the Albanians are slavs?

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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 14:29
Originally posted by xristar

I also am not fully convinced about Romanians being Dacians, and Albanians being Illyrians, but then a question arises: What are they? Apparently they are quite unique in their environment. I mean the Romanians speak a latin language in a region surrounded by slavs. Do we know any barbarian tribe that came at some time and settled there? And then how did it get latinized? The same for Albanians. How was the unique Albanian language created, if say the Albanians are slavs?


I don't think that the academic community will ever have sufficient evidence so as to say with certainty that the Albanian origin is this and that the Romanian origin is that.And this because as i said in earlier posts the evidence is not enough.While their origin is obscure,what they did when they appeared on the historical scene bearing the names with which they are known today is clear.But at the same time even our origin before we came to the Balkans,before 2000B.C is also obscure and we will never say with certainty from where our ancestors came.But does it really matter?
As far as the Bulgarians are concerned i have to say that their history since the time they arrived in the Balkans is recorded by the contemporary historians.On the other hand the cultural community of the Thracians disappeared as such.Today the thracian language simply doesn't exist.

@Anton
It is one thing to say that the ethnic character of your nation was influenced in the early Middle Ages by certain thracian elements and it is another thing to say that the Bulgarians are the descendants of the Thracians.You are clever enough to understand this,i hope.As you can understand the national character of the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian culture was also influenced very much by the Greek culture.Does it mean then that the Greeks are the ancestors of the Bulgarians?Shocked





Edited by nikodemos - 07-Sep-2006 at 14:31
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 18:03
Originally posted by nikodemos


@Anton
It is one thing to say that the ethnic character of your nation was influenced in the early Middle Ages by certain thracian elements and it is another thing to say that the Bulgarians are the descendants of the Thracians.You are clever enough to understand this,i hope.As you can understand the national character of the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian culture was also influenced very much by the Greek culture.Does it mean then that the Greeks are the ancestors of the Bulgarians?Shocked
 
I will be rather satisfied if we start with agreement on the fact that Bulgarian culture was influenced by Thracian culture. It will already be a progress Smile Because when I start to speak about that sort of influence the common answer is that "at the moment of arrival of Bulgarians to Balkan peninsulla Thracians first got Hellenized and then disappeared". When I ask some facts to support this people start to ask why don't you respect your slavic origin. Confused


Edited by Anton - 07-Sep-2006 at 18:07
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:19
Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.
Certain customs (I'm having the Anastenaria in mind) are supposed to be of Thracian origin (they are certainly pagan). These customs were practiced mainly in what in now south Bulgaria. But these customs survived in the Greek population of the area, and less in the Bulgarian.
 
I think that the ancient Thracians allied themselves more with the Greeks than with the Slavs or Turks that came from the north.

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 12:18
Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.
Certain customs (I'm having the Anastenaria in mind) are supposed to be of Thracian origin (they are certainly pagan). These customs were practiced mainly in what in now south Bulgaria. But these customs survived in the Greek population of the area, and less in the Bulgarian.
 
I think that the ancient Thracians allied themselves more with the Greeks than with the Slavs or Turks that came from the north.
 
If you point any web source to those certain customs that survived in Greece and not in Bulgaria,  we will discuss it. As for the rest part -- probably one need not to pay an attention to that as soon as it is again without arguments.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 12:25
Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.
Certain customs (I'm having the Anastenaria in mind) are supposed to be of Thracian origin (they are certainly pagan). These customs were practiced mainly in what in now south Bulgaria. But these customs survived in the Greek population of the area, and less in the Bulgarian.
 
You might be kidding that it did not survive in Bulgaria Ouch
 
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 04:15
You realize that the terminology of this custom in bulgarian is actually paraphrased greek.

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 04:27
Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.


Nonsense!
You stole Macedonian history, but keep your hands away from the Thracians.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 04:31
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.


Nonsense!
You stole Macedonian history, but keep your hands away from the Thracians.
You are provocator bg_turk
for one more time
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 05:15
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.
Nonsense!
You stole Macedonian history, but keep your hands away from the Thracians.
his talking culture and shared history, so before making inflammatory remarks about a quite reasonable quote, read what is actually being written.


if you have trouble understanding what you read then i suggest you ask

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by xristar

Bulgarians have less cultural Thracian influence than the Greeks.
Certain customs (I'm having the Anastenaria in mind) are supposed to be of Thracian origin (they are certainly pagan). These customs were practiced mainly in what in now south Bulgaria. But these customs survived in the Greek population of the area, and less in the Bulgarian.
 
You might be kidding that it did not survive in Bulgaria Ouch
 
another misquote, he said it exists in south bulgaria, which your wiki link confirms BTW. Ff it exists more in one language group or another is a different argument.


Edited by Leonidas - 09-Sep-2006 at 05:21
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 07:03
Originally posted by xristar

You realize that the terminology of this custom in bulgarian is actually paraphrased greek.
 
Another unproved argument. You guys fail to prove anything. Anastenaria as Dr.Google told me comes from
στενάζω = sigh deeply groan
 
Not sure about ana (it is said that it is translated as "per", "through", "among"). So Anastenaria or anastenarides are "those who are among amazed people" (people that makes deep groan).
 
Surprisingly same () ethimology comes from slav languages -- Nestinar = "ne stena(ju)" "Do not cry".  Which means that Nestinari are "people that do not feel pain". I consider bulgarian ethimology even as more close and convincing as greek one.
 
 


Edited by Anton - 09-Sep-2006 at 09:17
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 07:08
Originally posted by Leonidas



another misquote, he said it exists in south bulgaria, which your wiki link confirms BTW. Ff it exists more in one language group or another is a different argument.
 
It existed in south Bulgaria and northern Greece. This means in Rodopi. Where it is said that it exist more in Greece than in Bulgaria?  Or it is just one of "Big Greek wedding style" arguments? Whom are you trying to lie?
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