Early Russian history - History Forum ~ All Empires

When did Russia become a strong state?

It depends on a definition of 'a strong state'.

The Scandinavians were not an ''important component''- they were very few in numbers.

The name 'Rus' is indeed Scandinavian in origin. It came from the root 'to row' and meant initially participants in a Viking expedition. In the Russian language it came to mean royal guards then becoming the name of a Slavic-speaking ethnicity.

Originally posted by gramberto

When was the term 'rus' first used?

It is for the first time mentioned in the Frankish Annales Bertiniani in 838, when Russian ambassadors visited the Greek Emperor Theophylus in Constantinople and the Frankish Emperor Louis the Pious in Ingelheim.

Originally posted by gramberto

When did Russia become a strong state?

Russia was a strong state already in the early 9th century. It controlled a large part of North-Eastern Europe and fought with the powerful Khazar Khaganate.

Man, you are deluded. The term Russia had been used long before the 16th century, as you can see from the following examples from Iceland (13th century)

Sweden (14th century)

or France (Gilbert de Lannoy, early 15th century)

Viking is not an ethnic term. Baltic Slavs were Vikings themselves and harried the coasts of Scandinavia. Russians did assimilate Scandinavians, but their numbers were not very high, I believe.

I would be interested to know where the official Estonian historiography got that information on the siege of Novgorod.

I believe you. It would be very strange indeed if you claimed that Turks' asses were kicked on so many occassions by slaves.

Let's not post stupid agitations here, its not civil at all.

Romania and Moldavia are actually latin people, though there is a strong slavic genetic component in their populations, and in the case of Moldavia, a large slavic minority.

To my knowledge, it actually comes from the word "Slava", which in Slavonic as well as some modern slavic languages means "glory" or "glorious".

Man, you are deluded. The term Russia had been used long before the 16th century, as you can see from the following examples from Iceland (13th century)

Sweden (14th century)

or France (Gilbert de Lannoy, early 15th century)

Especially look at this:

'By the end of the 12th century, the word Ruthenia was used, among the alternative spelling Ruscia and Russia, in Latin papal documents to denote the lands formerly dominated by Kiev.'

It seems that the term Russia might be as old as you write, but it had other meaning in the past. It didn't mean Russia (I mean Moscow state) but it meant Ruthenia. If so, there is a question - when the term Russia became a synonym of 'Moscow state'.

According to these pages:

only since Iwan's III reign (1462-1505) the term 'Rossija'/Russia was used to define Moscow state. Is this correct? I know that Wikipedia isn't a valid source, but it is good for the begining...

Especially look at this:

'By the end of the 12th century, the word Ruthenia was used, among the alternative spelling Ruscia and Russia, in Latin papal documents to denote the lands formerly dominated by Kiev.'

Good question. May I also ask you when the term Poland became a synonym of 'Krakow state'?

Seriously, I know the crappy theory invented by Poles and eagerly embraced by Ukrainians which claims that Rus' and Rossiya are two different names, ethnicities and countries which have nothing to do with each other. Well, it sounds so insane that I am almost ashamed to discuss it, but if you insist... Before you make a claim about history, it is highly advisable to look into sources, and if you look into, for example, medieval German or Swedish sources you will see that in their native languages they call Russia Russland or Ryssland and in Latin Russia, Ruscia or Ruthenia. The following texts pertain to Pskov, Novgorod, Suzdal and Moscow.

The Old Livonian Rhymed Chronicle (13th century)

(02205.) Ein stat ist gr�� unde wiet
(02206.) die ouch in R��en lande liet:
(02207.) Susdal (51) ist sie genant.
(02208.) Alexander was genant
(02209.) der bie der z�t ir kunic hie�:
(02210.) s�n volc (53) er sich bereiten lie�.

(02211.) den R��en was ir schade leit;
(02212.) snelle wurden sie bereit.
(02213.) d� v�r kunic Alexander,
(02214.) mit im vil manich ander
(02215.) R��e her von Susdal.
(02216.) sie v�rten bogen �ne zal,
(02217.) vil manche brunje wunnecl�ch.
(02218.) ir banier die w�ren r�ch,
(02219.) ir helme die w�ren liecht bekant.
(02220.) sus zogeten sie in der br�der lant

(02221.) d� gewaldecl�ch mit her.

The Chronicle of the Teutonic Order (14th century)

Dese Mysterr Herman Valck bestalde tegen den Rusenn, de dem Orden vele Ledes deden, sunderlyck dem Byschopp Hermann von Dorpte, milh des Koninges Volcke, Vnd Meyster Herman toch mit macht In Ruslandt vor eyne Borch, geheyten Isborch, Vnd de Rusen qwemen hyr tegen, Vnd dar warth gestreden vnnd gefochlenn sehrr. Die Chrysten behelden die auerhandt, Vnd dar bleuen doeth Achte hundert Rusenn, Vnd die anderen entschlogenn, Vnd der worth vele geuangenn. Dese Meyster mith synen Broderen, vndt Volck schlogenn er Telth vor Pleskauwe, eyn Stadt also geheyten, Vp dath Velth Inn Ruslandt. De Meyster dede gebeden, dath syck eyn Iderr rede makede, Vmme tho stormen beyde borch und Statt. De Russen begerden eynen frede, Vnd die Pleskowerr boden syck vnder denn Orden, wolden geuen vnd dar wordt eyn frede gemaket mith den Rusenn. Als dath Geerpolth oer Konnyngh beleuede, dath de Borch vud Statt vnd Alle, dath dar by lach, die gyngen vnder denn Ordenn vnd worden Christen. De Meyster besatte die Statt vnd Borch mith twen synen Broderenn, vnd meth Chrysten Volcke, vnd loueden Godt, vnd syne benedicde Moder, van grother Victorien vnd reysedenn wedderumb.

The Chronicle of Livonia by Hermann von Wartberge (14th century)

Item caslrum Ysborch Ruthenorum expugnavit. Rutheni vero Plescowenses cremata civitate corum se illi subdiderunt. Reliquit aulem idem magister duos fratres cum paucis ibi pro conservacione castri ad augmentandum numerum conversorum. Sed Nogardenses hoc intelligentes relictos fratres cum familia subito amoverunt.

Swedish chronicles

The above-cited Frenchman Gilbert de Lannoy who in the early 15th century visited Poland, Lithuania and Russia calls the lands of Novgorod, Pskov and Moscow, as well as the Russian lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russie, and their population, Russes.

Originally posted by ataman

According to these pages:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielkie_Księstwo_Moskiewskie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Rus_and_derivatives

only since Iwan's III reign (1462-1505) the term 'Rossija'/Russia was used to define Moscow state. Is this correct? I know that Wikipedia isn't a valid source, but it is good for the begining...

What language do you mean? As I have showed, the lands of the 'Moscow state' had been called Russia centuried before Ivan III. And if you mean the Russian word Rossiya, it began to replace the older form Rus' in the 16th century, and not just in Russia. If you look through Ukrainian texts of the 16th or 17th centuries, you will see that they use Rus' and Rossiya interchangeably (applying both of these words to Ukraine).

http://litopys.org.ua/ukrpoetry/anto52.htm#panv1

What for Russian states, there are 6 of them (IMHO

2. Grand Duchy of Lithuania (full name Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia - latin transcription);

3. Grand Duchy of Moscow (later Russian Tsardom);

4. Russian empire.

6. Modern Russia.

The word Russia (in Latin and Latin-influenced texts) was used from at least the 11th century. The word Rhosia (in Greek texts) was used from the 9th century. The Russian word Ros[s]iya (Greek-influenced form of of the Russian word Rus') became widespread in the 16th century but had been occasionally used for centuries before that.

Originally posted by John Lenon

What for Russian states, there are 6 of them (IMHO

1. Kievan Rus';

2. Grand Duchy of Lithuania (full name Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia - latin transcription);

3. Grand Duchy of Moscow (later Russian Tsardom);

4. Russian empire.

5. USSR

6. Modern Russia.

There is only one Russian state which has always been called Russia.