Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Legacy of europeans sold into the islamic

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
gramberto View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 12-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
  Quote gramberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Legacy of europeans sold into the islamic
    Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 16:59
I am listening to some lectures on the vikings.
 
 
The professor said that the vikings would routinely raid eastern european/slavic communities and sell the people there into slavery to the islamic kingdoms.
 
What happened to them and their decendants? Are there any eastern european communities left in the middle east?
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 17:30

Is it possible to listen to that particular lecture without having to buy the DVD or the Video?

If they were sold in slave market, they won't be concentrated in one location as Eastern European communities. I'm not sure of Eastern European slaves, but it has been a common practice in the second millenium for many Turkic tribes to capture and sell other Turkic slaves especially from the Bulgar and the Crimean Turkic tribes. Those were the founders of later kingdoms in Egypt such as the Memluks (literally the owned slaves) and other Middle Eastern sultanates. Of course later, Ottoman turks captured and bought many Eastern Europeans, Balkans, Caucasus Europeans to be trained as janissaries who enjoyed special privilages in exchange for their total loyalty to the Ottoman Caliph or Sultan. But those also did not form a seperate communities of Eastern Europeans in the Middle East. Rather they were spread between all areas of the Ottoman Empire as Pashas, soldiers, and governors.
The only Eastern European community I can think of that has been settled in the Middle East as a gathered community of Slavs is the story of the 5,000 Slavic soldiers of the Byzantine Empire who deserted to the Arabs during the early Ummayed years and were settled in Palestine. Most probably, their desertation from the Byzantine army was due to recent military operations against Slavic and Balkan Europeans by the Byzantine army.
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
gramberto View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 12-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
  Quote gramberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 23:05
check your public library. my public library has all of the lectures.
Back to Top
Lorenzo View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Lorenzo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 23:14
I don't know about this in particular, but I have read that the slaves from Egypt and transferred to the East (China?) were castrated to make it impossible to reproduce. very possible the same occured.
you want truth? I'll give you truth- taco bell isn't real mexican food
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 00:54
I frankly doubt that castration occured.
Back to Top
Nestorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 161
  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 11:51

@cok gec

Indeed, there was a desertion of Slavs to the Arabs during the reign of Justinian II. 6000 is around the correct number as 6000 is already a large number in itself. They were recent captives of Justinian and settled in a place they did not desire to be in the first place. And so..an enemy's enemy is your friend, you desert when you have the chance.

A slav friend tells me that they were several prominent slavs in spain and were known as saqalibas (?) kind of like the arab verson sklavenoi
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Back to Top
Orderic Vitalis View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
  Quote Orderic Vitalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:01
Some Eastern European, like other non-Muslims sold into slavery, would have become Mamluks. Other slaves would have been manumitted, either through converting to Islam, or by their owners (a common practice). In Spain you might see attempts by Chrisitans to purchase such slaves, but I doubt this would be the case with Eastern Europeans.

In any case, most slaves or their children, if they had any, would have converted to Islam and gradually assimilated into their culture, and though intermarriage, their descendents would lose any of their blond and blue-eyed characteristics.
Visit our site www.medievalists.net for articles, videos and more about the Middle Ages
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:05
Originally posted by Lorenzo

I don't know about this in particular, but I have read that the slaves from Egypt and transferred to the East (China?) were castrated to make it impossible to reproduce. very possible the same occured.
 
Slaves from Egypt to China? I'm not aware of that. I would love to see examples of such trade. Usually, the slaves in the middle east were either Abbassyians, Turkic tribes of Crimean and around the Bulgars, and war captives.
I know for sure that during Ottoman era, there used to be a group of Abbassyians slaves who were castrated and they served the holy mosque in Mecca. I'm not confident about the origin of this practice, because it is not local to the Middle Eastern culture to castrate slaves. However, those castrated Abbasyians slaves were servants to the Mosque in Mecca and can mingle with women in the mosque for organizing and putting order as they were not feared for sexually harrassing female visitors. Memories of Castren Nihpor who visited the Hejaz region in the late 18th century pointed to some of those special servants.
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
TRUREL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 14-Nov-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote TRUREL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by Sparten

I frankly doubt that castration occured.
 
You doubt that there were Eunuchs?
All we wanted was our country to love us as much as we loved it.
Back to Top
Desperado View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 27-Apr-2006
Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 227
  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 10:11
    Raiding the neighbouring Christian lands (current Ukraine and South Russia) for slaves was a common and profitable business for the Crimean Tartars and Cherkassians, described like innocent victims by Bgturk in this thread. The same slaves were also bought by Venetians, Genoans etc. as a crews for their galleys (despite being Christrian).
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by TRUREL

Originally posted by Sparten

I frankly doubt that castration occured.
 
You doubt that there were Eunuchs?
 
Eunuchs were a minority between slaves. It is curious, but Islamic countries always had a curious favoritism for European slaves.
 
 
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:04
In Al-Andalus there were a vast market for the eslaves, many of they true slavs. These slavs come to muslim Spain because the wars of the carolingians and then the german lords in the eastern frontiers, from there they were put in Verdn, the main market of eslaves in western Europe, and from here the muslim traders take their to Al-Andalus. A portion of the slaves was castrated and worked in the palace, but many others worked mainly in the administrative system or few in the army; there were three types of eslave women: blacks from the Nger, whites from iberian christian kingdoms and whites from Frankish-Slavic Europe, these last as say pinguin was the most valued by the iberian muslims because their light skin, eyes and hair. Althought originally the name saqalibas refering to the slaves, they will be mixed then with other non iberian groups, the "franks", these eslaves was provided by the piracy bases in southern France; so at one moment, the "slavs" from Al-Andalus was in fact all eslave from non iberian Europe (and certainlly in later years, too from this place)

When the Caliphate fall down, the "slaves" will have a lot of small kingdoms, "taifas", in the mediterranean coast, of these, the more important and strong was the Taifa of Denia (and Balearic islands), wich will launch several campaigns of piracy in the western mediterranean sea, included a serious attack to Sardinia if i remember well.
Back to Top
NikeBG View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 04-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 529
  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:20
What's the etymology of the word "taifa"? Because even in modern Bulgarian "taifa" is a slang term for "a group, a band".
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:23
Originally posted by Desperado

  Tartars and Cherkassians, described like innocent victims by Bgturk in this thread. The same slaves were also bought by Venetians, Genoans etc. as a crews for their galleys (despite being Christrian).
 
Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters? Why do you prescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


Edited by Zagros - 16-Nov-2006 at 12:25
Back to Top
Desperado View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 27-Apr-2006
Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 227
  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:57
Originally posted by Zagros


Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters?Why do youprescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


The 9th century slave hunters, really got nothing to do with their 19th century colleagues except the common business. The main source of slave labour for the Islamic world from Europe, was firstly the Crimean Khanate, after it's destruction-the North Caucasus muslim tribes.
   For sure some of them were innocent victims, but their notorious practics of constant raiding the nearby lands for slaves and pillage as well as the military support for the Ottoman Empire provoked such severe counter measures.
    
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by NikeBG

What's the etymology of the word "taifa"? Because even in modern Bulgarian "taifa" is a slang term for "a group, a band".


Taifa (Ta'ifah) was a word applied to all the kingdoms derivated from the the Caliphate, have an arab origin and mean "faction"
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by Desperado

Originally posted by Zagros


Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters? Why do you prescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


The 9th century slave hunters, really got nothing to do with their 19th century colleagues except the common business. The main source of slave labour for the Islamic world from Europe, was firstly the Crimean Khanate, after it's destruction-the North Caucasus muslim tribes.
   For sure some of them were innocent victims, but their notorious practics of constant raiding the nearby lands for slaves and pillage as well as the military support for the Ottoman Empire provoked such severe counter measures.
    
 
So you are saying that they were still slave hunters in the 19th century?  Can you provide some academic or historical facts to support this assertation? Even if so, you say only some were innocent? I did not realise that the common people of a polity decided its geopolitical/strategic policies, which, even if they did, has nothing to do with slave hunting.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Desperado View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 27-Apr-2006
Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 227
  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 16:39

Originally posted by Zagros


So you are saying that they were still slave hunters in the 19th century? Can you provide some academic or historical facts to support this assertation?Even if so, you say only some were innocent? I did not realise that the common people of a polity decided its geopolitical/strategic policies, which, even if they did, has nothing to do with slave hunting.


Yes, I DO say that some are innocent, because the women and children are not responsible for their husbands/parents activities. Even until nowadays (2002) hundreds, if not thousands of non-muslims were kept as slaves in different Caucasus republics of the Russian Federation (mainly in Chechenia). If you want more info check Fisher's “Muscovy and the Black Sea Slave Trade” and Reuben Levy's, "The Social Structure of Islam".
In Hogendorn, “The Hideous Trade” there are pointed three main slave producing regions, from the VIIIth through the late XIXth centuries, including the areas were the forested parts of central and eastern Europe was called by Muslims the “Bild as-Saqaliba” (“slave country”). Gues where's that? Slavery was openly practiced in both Ottoman Turkey, and Shiite Iran, even through the first decade of the 20th century. (Ehud Toledano, "Slavery and Abolition in the Ottoman Middle East"). I admit that the raids for slaves diminished through the XVIII century and although they cannot be compared with the horror of mid-15th through late 17th, they didnt't stop, it was a profitable business, and as you can see there still was a market as late as the fall of Ottoman Empire. Also I can add some aspects of Chercassians behavior by the time when they were resettled by the Ottomans in Northern Bulgaria, but I won't, because you'll immediately say that i'm biased(I'm an ethnic Bulgarian). I'll just mention that for the several decades of their presence the cry "Cherkezi!" was synonymous to "Plague!" or "Run for your lives!".



    
Back to Top
omshanti View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Nov-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 429
  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 15:59
I am surprised that the connection between the words ''slave'' and ''slav'' has not been mentioned in this thread.

Regarding the slavery of slavic people or east-Europeans , I would like to remind every body that It should not be discussed or forgotten as something of the past because it still very much exists openly and in a world wide scale. Women from eastern Europe are still being abducted, tricked , deceived and sold all over the world for prostitution and pornography. There was this news of this Ukrainian man last year who was looking for his wife who was kidnapped and sold . He was looking for her all over Turkey where it was believed that she was taken to. Also here in Japan, there are so many Russian women who are forced in to prostitution. I would like to warn every body who reads this post. Whoever looks at pornography is very likely to be contributing to this sex slavery.
    
    
    
    
    

Edited by omshanti - 29-Nov-2006 at 21:29
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 15:37
In the days of piracy, Barbarossa and such raided along the whole European coast to man the galleys and to be sold off in slave markets, as Desperado has already pointed out. There is even mention somewhere of slave raids off the Irish, Cornish coasts and Scilly Isles .
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.