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European naval power from 500-1200

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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: European naval power from 500-1200
    Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 12:31
Very interesting - may I ask a few questions...
 
Originally posted by tadamson

For those who are following the "Viking boats are wonderful" thread....

There is a clear North Sea ship development path..

North German dugout canoes develop to board sided vessels.
Romans bring medeterranian style galleys to area
 
Yes - Arent they wonderful? - glad you agree Smile
 
I'm not sure what you mean by North German - or what period of time we are talking here.
The oldest larger boat excavated (to my best knowledge) in that region, is the Nydam boat from 320 AD, found in South Denmark, and is considered the natural "father" for longboats, and probably the type of boat used by the Anglo-Saxons migrating to England. 
 
 
It was found in costal area in Angelen - also near Hedeby (Haitabu).
 


Romans, Franks, Saxons develop a hybrid design, light skeleton, clinker built, solid keel, with a residual ram shaped bow (so it looks like a proper Roman warship), single stepped mast, 10-20 benches.  These are fast and manouverable.  The Roman fleet units still maintain a few Medeterranian style galleys for naval supremacy (they are bigger, faster, carried bolt shooting artillery, much bigger crews and in a fight massivly outclassed the raiding boats).
 
Are there any sources providing more facts about galleys in the North Sea?
I've never heard of these hybrids before, nor have I heard of any ships like Galleys found on the continental side of the North Sea. 
Any UK finds?
 


As the empire withdrew, raiding and piracy expanded, Saxons etc took over the formal naval system of forts, harbours, signal stations etc built in Britain etc...

In Norway, local shipbuilders exploited very tall fir trees to design bigger, longer ships that became the 'longships' (both Drakkar and trading Knorr), but many regions (Hebrides, Pictland, Sweeden, Finland) maintained large numbers of much smaller boats (8-10 benches), with only a few longships.
The Danes attacked England in fleets of mid size ships (typically 14 benchers), interestingly the English stuck to larger 20 bench ships throughout the period.  An interesting episode was when Knut as King of England and Denmark attacked and conquered Norway, his fleet was based round 50 large English ships, as these outclassed the Norwegian ones.
 
Yes - the Norwegians very often used "fir" as you say, whereas the Danes very often used oak throughtout the whole construction (except for mast/rig of course)
Very early, the Danish kings planted woods of oak for their fleet, and actually most of out oakwoods today was plantet for that purpose. But the development of steelships suddenly made them useless for this purpose - so now we have a lot of old oaktrees.
 
There are no Danish sources that describes this in details (Knut and his fleet) - maybe you can direct me to English ones.
 
Thanks
 


Edited by Northman - 01-Sep-2006 at 12:36
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 02:41

"When did the european naval technology start to improve again?"

Clearly in the 12th century, when Europeans discovered the essential steering rudder for the stern of the ship (instead of steering by row power), as well as the magnetic compass for navigation. Of course both these were items concieved long before-hand in ancient and medieval China (Han China and then Song China with the latter, although the Chinese statesman Ma Jun of the 3rd century AD invented a directional compass employing differential gears, not magnetism), and after a period of time, were both transfused to the Western world, along with other Eastern-originated inventions, but I won't bother listing them, since they don't have anything to do with influencing seafaring and naval power of Europe. In retrospect, the ancient Athenians who headed the Delian League, the powerful Hellenistic Kings, and obviously the friggin Romans held sway over the Mediterranean, but they weren't the first (Egyptians, Phoenicians, Minoans, etc.), nor were they the last. Although Italian city-states like Genoa and Venice were big players during the Medieval period, by the 16th century, with exploration of the globe, as well as such megalith naval battles like the Battle of Gravelines (English fleet vs. Spanish Armada), or the Battle of Lepanto (with the European Holy League vs. Ottoman Turks), it was quite clear that Europe had once again achieved its naval glory once achieved when Rome dominated the Mediterranean, and quite frankly surpassed that earlier glory.
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 08:45
 
Originally posted by Northman

 
Are there any sources providing more facts about galleys in the North Sea?
I've never heard of these hybrids before, nor have I heard of any ships like Galleys found on the continental side of the North Sea. 
Any UK finds?
 
Not I think in the time you're talking about. In the 12th - 14th centuries yes. Grimaldi and Doria both led Genoese fleets in the service of the French against England (and burnt down my home town, Southampton, in 1338 - not that I was living there at the time).
 
The English kings all built their fleets, such as they were at the time, around 'galleys' but they weren't true Mediterranean galleys[1]: the word came to be used for any type of oared vessel.
 
[1] Skeleton- built with outriggers and a spur in the bows. The northern 'galleys' were still shell-built and I don't think had the outriggers and the spur.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Sep-2006 at 08:49
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 11:22
Originally posted by gramberto

 
3. When did the european naval technology start to improve again?


Looking at the effects of Latin European naval technology it must have been in the 11th century, because by then the Italian city-states (first Pisa and Amalfi, later Venice and Genoa) had gone firmly into the offensive against the Muslim. At the first crusade (1096-99), their fleets already blew away the Fatimid fleet almost at will. Without their sea supremacy it would have not been possible for the crusaders to sack one Muslim stronghold after another at the Syrian-Palestine coast. After that, the Mediterranean trade rested in the hands of the Italians practically until the 16th century.

This was a rather remarkable feat, considering that in the Indic and Pacific the Muslims fleets still controlled the trade, making the Mediterranean thus the only sea where Muslim trade and navies were relegated to second place
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 11:45
As for technology itself:

The first clear reference to the floating magetic needle (the early compass) and the stern mounted pidgeon and  pintle rudder come from the second half of the 12th century.

Carvel had been used in the Mediterranean since antiquity and quickly replaced clinker after its introduction into northern Europe in the second half of the 15th century, but not because it was better as such, but because bigger ships could be built with carvel technique.

The first mention of the true compass, that is the compass we know totay with a free moving dry magnetic needle, was in the early 14th century and was soon adopted by the Arabs and probably also the Chinese.

Lateen sails were already known in late antiquity - Belisar's flag ship probably had one in the attack on the Vandal Empire -, but are, as far as I know, rather absent on contemporary depictions. The Arabs certainly used them on their dhows as standard. At latest on the Portuguese caravel they became standard in combination with square rig(s).

Multi-masted ships were, as fas as I remember, only introduced in the 14th-15th century, and then by the Portugese who first experimented with these ships on a large scale.

Another, very important features of Mediterranean navigation, were the astrolab, already known by the Greeks and widely employed by the Arabs, and the so-called baculus jacob, the staff of Jacob, which was an indigenous European invention. Especially the later was in fact more widely used than the compass, whose importance for medieval navigation everywhere is sometimes exaggerated.

European navigation was also quite advanced in terms of cartography and knowledge of currents. Columbus not only recorded latitudes, but also longitudes in his diary, if I am not mistaken.

The pinnacle then were the systematic, state-sponsored explorations of the Portuguese which were a revolutionary new feature of navigation. That was the first time that the state (in the person of Henry the Navigator) invested systematically in a long term goal (the discovery of the sea route to India), hiring the best scholars and scientists (Christians, Jews and Muslims alike) and making use of all relevant disciplines (astronomy, cartography, ship building, ethnography).

It was only through this modern central planning that the Portuguese almost immediately on their arrival eliminated the competition of long established Muslim trade states in Arabia, India and SE Asia, despite numerically being outnumbered 100 to 1 or so.


Edited by Gun Powder Ma - 02-Sep-2006 at 11:49
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 12:40
"The first clear reference to the floating magetic needle (the early compass) and the stern mounted pidgeon and  pintle rudder come from the second half of the 12th century."
 
The earliest reference to a compass ever comes from a 4th century BC Chinese book called Book of the Devil Valley Master, and back then it was a simple loadstone (highly magnetized magnetite) basin placed with a metal ladle spoon, and it was used largely for purposes of geomancy, including pointing one's house in the southern direction because the Chinese believed this was most auspicious to the designs of feng shui. In the Dream Pool Essay, written by the Northern Song Dynasty era scholar Shen Kua in 1086 AD, gives detailed descriptions of how a magnetized loadstone needle with a single strain of silk with a bit of wax attached to the end hung the needle, and when the needle was hung this way, it could point either north or south. However, the first evidence in Chinese records of a compass used for navigation, Zhu Yu's book the Pingzhou Ke Tan, or the Pingzhou Table Books of 1127 AD, predates both Arab and European documentation of a magnetized compass used for navigation (Yemeni Sultan al-Ashraf in 1290, although use of the compass could have come earlier, and with Europe, Alexander Neckham's De Naturis Rerum, or the Natures of Things). There is speculation that the magnetic compass was both an indigenous invention of China and the West, considering that the Chinese usage of the compass was to point south, and for Europe it was to point north. However, there is also equal speculation that the idea of the magnetized compass spread from China to Europe since the Chinese compass predated the latter and since seafaring trade links between the seafaring Chinese to Indians, Persians, Arabs, Africans of the Southern Song Dynasty in China to the Indian Ocean could easily have transfused such an idea by way of constant communication of China to the West (hell, it could even have been transported via the silk road, as many things were). As for the astrolabe, you are correct about the ancient Greeks (Hipparchus), and the Arabs employing its use that would later transfuse back to Europe by the 11th century, although it wasn't widespread in use again in Europe until about the 13th century. The first armillary sphere, the spherical astrolabe, was invented by the Greek Eratosthenes in the West in 255 BC, while the first Chinese invention of the armillary sphere dates to 52 BC with the astronomers Geng Shou-chang and Luo-xia Hong. The first water-powered celestial globe is accredited to the 2nd century Chinese genius Zhang Heng, who was quite easily the equivalent of Archimedes to Western technological invention, math, and science. As for Jacob's staff, this came long after the compass was already introduced to Europe, as it is accredited to either the Jewish mathematician Levi Ben Gerson (lived 1288 - 1344) or Georg Purbach (1423 - 1461), the famous Austrian astronomer and mathematician.
 
Pidgeon? Did you mean pintle and gudgeon (although I have heard it been called as a pidgeon before)? Anyways, once again with the sternpost-mounted rudder, there is speculation that it could be both Chinese and European inventions separately, and equal speculation that the idea was transfused from China to Europe. This is brought about by the idea that in the Middle Ages, ships had adopted a quarter-rudder to placed at the stern of the ship, which aided the steering used by rowing power of oarsmen. By the late 12th century, the quarter rudder began to be replaced by the better advantage of the pintle and gudgeon rudder mounted at the sternpost, but even the quarter rudder persisted in use well into the 14th century (The Development of the Rudder, by Lawrence V. Mott, 1997). But to the point of the idea of the mounted sternpost rudder coming from China to Europe, the first use of a rudder in Europe is in stark contrast to the first of Chinese rudders, evidence of which stems back to the Eastern Han Dynasty (23 - 220 AD), where a clay model of a Chinese "junk" ship dated to that era had mounted at the stern a steering rudder. Throughout the centuries to follow, Chinese chronicles extensively record the use and evolution of the sternpost rudder to better-adapted models, employing techniques such as hole-drilling to decrease the amount of water friction in order to steer faster, etc. In the late 4th - early 5th century (399 - 422 AD), the Chinese Buddhist Monk Fa Xian was the first Chinese to sail in a junk all the way to India across the eastern half of the Indian Ocean. From that point on, the Chinese used not only land routes like the Silk Road stretching from the Tarim Basin all the way to Eastern Europe, but relied heavily on oceangoing trade, from ports in east and southern China (like Quanzhou and the like), and sailed all the way to India, Persia, Arabia, and East Africa during the Tang Dynasty (618 - 907 AD), as it was the Muslim Prophet Muhammad himself who allowed some of his lineage (an uncle Waqqas) to travel to China during the reign of Emperor Gaozu of Tang, and is accredited for having spread Islam to China. It wasn't until the Song Dynasty (960 - 1279), though, that the Chinese relied heavily on massive oceangoing navies (before this point, large Chinese navies were lake and riverine based) to escort their merchant fleets and defend them, no longer relying on Arabs or Indians to do all the middle-men trekking or commerce.        
 
Eric 


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 02-Sep-2006 at 14:09
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 08:43
Well, as I was refering to our topic Europe, of course.

As you said the first clear reference to a floating magnetic needle used for navigational prurposes comes from early 12th century China.

But the true mariner's compass, that is the compass as we know it today (pivoting needle with a windrose), seems to be an entirely European innovation. Peter Peregrinus, a friend of Roger Bacon, has left us a work where he describes experiments with three different compasses, all with a pivoting needle (1269). Then there is a strong tradition crediting Amalfi with the introduction of the dry compass for navigation around 1300. The first literary reference to the pivoting compass for sailing is then in Dante's work around 1380.

In China, there is no mention at all of the true mariner's compass until late in the 1500s - after the Portuguese had arrived.

All subsequent major developments, the liquid compass and the electromagnetic compass, were also made by European mariners.


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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 01:10
Thanks for the info Gun Powder Ma, and do you still have those links you wanted to email to me by any chance?
 
Eric
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 04:09
Originally posted by gcle2003

What Constantine wrote about the Mediterranean is right, except I'm not sure what he means by 'Spain' in the period, and the 'Norman kingdom' of Sicily is of course a Viking settlement at one remove.


I should not have used the word "Spain", was using it more as a catch all term for the Iberian states of the middle ages. Perhaps most prominent amongst these was Aragon, which made use of its navy to engage in conquests outside Iberia before the reconquista had been completed. The intriguing tale of the Sicilian Vespers could not have occurred without Aragon's navy.

Another navy worth mentioning, now that I think of Iberia, is that which seemed to spring up to carry crusading fleets. Often these were an assortment of royal vessels, some merchant ships and contributions by the Italian states. A cobbling together of English and Flemish vessels was responsible for the transport of soldiers to Lisbon and the unintented (unless you believe my friend's Burgundian conspiracy theory) blockade and capture of the city.
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 14:42
Well its been pretty well covered but I'll just add that the Vikings developed their longboats from their experience of sailing between the Islands of Scandinavia which sheltered the coast from the north sea and that their ships had such a shallow draught that they could sail up rivers where others couldn't follow them or drive their ships right up onto the beach.  As I think gcle2003 said earlier the vikings were raiders: they attacked, looted and left.  The vikings could be beaten dare I say easily if they didn't have suprise on their side.  Of course there were exceptions; I think they stayed on an island in the seine right near paris in the 9th century and the franks couldn't reach them due to their deep draught ships.  It wasn't that the vikings couldn't be challenged it was more that they avoided being challenged, why fight the franks or English if you can steal from them and leave without a scratch.  If the vikings were caught in the act the probabilities of defeating them rose astronomically. 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 17:49
While its true when we speak of England, that the years between 789 (and even earlier) to the middle of the 9'th century were dominated by sporadic raids and looting along the coast, there are more to the story.
 
The Norwegians came from the north - Shetland, Orkney and Hebrides - exploring sites for raiding in Scotland and along the coasts of the Irish Sea, whereas the Danes raided  the eastcost from north to south.
Of course, people were upset about these raids, but it was the next half century that really made a difference. A change happened in the behavior of the Danish Vikings, as they now arrived with large armies with the aim of permanent settlement. Combined with "the navy" as bases, higly mobile forces moving fast around the country, attacking the weakest Anglo-Saxon kingsdoms in turn, and exploiting the civil war raging Northhumbria at that time. In 850 they wintered on English soil for the first time.
The following year 350 longboats sailed up the Thames attacking Canterbury and London, and forced Brithwulf, king of the Mercians on the run with his army.  
They primarily moved along the rivers in order to keep close contact to the longboats following them inlands.
In 866 York was captured, and in the following decade up to 880 the lands of Yorkshire, Mercia and East Anglia was taken or willingly submitted to the Vikings.
 
There is a lot more to this tale in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, but my point here is just to emphasize the importance of the longboats - not only in the "hit and run" strategy raiding the coast, but also their value as bases when the Vikings ventured inlands.
Without them, it could never have happened. 
 
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 04:39
Northman is correct and Justinian too for the period he was considering. Later on again of course England became subject to the Danish crown for a while, and in the end it wasn't really until 1066 that the attempt to restore Danish rule petered out with the Conquest.
 
How much that was due to the Normans and how much to do with internal affairs in Denmark/Scandinavia I don't know because I don't know anything about internal affairs in Denmark/Scandinavia Smile.
 
Except for their going around putting poison in each others' ears, which I glean from Hamlet of course. Big smile
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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 20:26
I think mostly because both Hadrada and Tostig were killed at Stamford Bridge, being the only ones who could half-legitimately claim the throne. Other people would have to go the Svein Forkbeard way and conquer the island, whereas Hadrada had some geneological claim. That, and that the Viking army was pretty much annihilated, and when they had it rebuilt the Normans were too much in control and too strong.
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