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Triumph and Tragedy in history

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Amirsan View Drop Down
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Triumph and Tragedy in history
    Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 16:54
Hey,

I have to say this is an excellent website and forums, got hooked on it the moment I saw it.  Keep up the good work.  :)

As for the topic, as some of you may know in the US there is a National History Day competition.  It is a very nice competition, in which you must either create a documentary, play, research paper, etc and present it to judges, and advance from county, to state-level, and to national level.

Anyways, each year there is a different theme, of which you must chose your topic so that it relates to that theme.  I am interested in doing NHD this year for a research paper. 

The theme for this year is Triumph and Tragedy.  Would you guys happen to have any ideas regarding this theme, topic ideas, etc.  Keep note, the paper must be between 1,500 and 2,500 words, or approximately 6 to 10 pages. 

Incase your interested, the theme description is located here, and some sample topics they have provided.
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ataman View Drop Down
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 01:56
Originally posted by Amirsan

The theme for this year is Triumph and Tragedy.  Would you guys happen to have any ideas regarding this theme, topic ideas, etc. 
 
Well, it looks easy. A triumph of a state X in some war against state Y, is usually a tragedy for the state Y :). You have hundreds of examples in human history.
Other topic - a personal triumph of a ruler might be a tragedy for the state ruled by this guy. You have plenty of examples too.
Other topic - a triumph of some ideology might be a tragedy for people in this country which created this ideology (or outside this country).
 
etc. etc. etc.
 
 
 


Edited by ataman - 23-Aug-2006 at 01:57
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 04:53
If 'Triumph and Tragedy' were the title of a history book or a chapter heading in one, I'd probably immediately think it was about the Battle of Trafalgar and the death of Nelson.
 
That's about the most spectacular example of triumph and tragedy (for the same side) I can think of, though there have been less famous examples such as the death of Wolfe at Quebec.
 
Of course it should be remembered that every triumph (military at least) is marred by the personal tragedies of those who died in achieving it, even if they are not all Nelsons or Wolfes.
 
 
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 05:15
Triumph and Tragedy. It reminds me the death of king Bla I.
 
After a civil war against his brother he finally succeded to seize the throne and the throne -litteraly- killed him, when it collapsed.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 05:43
How about something not so war orienated, miyamoto musashi. Who as a youth set out to become the greatest swordsman in Japan. He travelled the four corners building up a reputation challenging all the best swordsman. But gradually found each person he killed would have an aggreived relative who would want a rematch for his defeated kinsman, others would try and ambush him. At one point he had to massacre and entire family, including the 12 year old heir. Finally so fearsome was his reputation that whenever he entered a room people would be in awe and fear of him.
 
In his later life he wrote a sad autobiography of how he wished he had never done it and had consigned himself to a life of loneliness without human relationships, being pointed at and being a curiosity to all and forever looking over his should for the next assassin. But what's worse having to act like the hardened dispationate killer in public simply to scare people into not challenging him, when the last thing he wanted to do was kill anymore and craved friendship.
 
Musashi's life is also the basis for the whole Hollywood cowboy genre.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 23-Aug-2006 at 05:45
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:25
Originally posted by Paul

How about something not so war orienated, 
 
Paul, you are right. There is not only war in this world.
So my proposal is next.
 
The triumph - my mother-in-law will have a car accident.
The tragedy - she will drive my Mercedes during this car accident. 


Edited by ataman - 23-Aug-2006 at 06:25
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:27
Originally posted by Paul

How about something not so war orienated, miyamoto musashi. Who as a youth set out to become the greatest swordsman in Japan. He travelled the four corners building up a reputation challenging all the best swordsman. But gradually found each person he killed would have an aggreived relative who would want a rematch for his defeated kinsman, others would try and ambush him. At one point he had to massacre and entire family, including the 12 year old heir. Finally so fearsome was his reputation that whenever he entered a room people would be in awe and fear of him.
 
In his later life he wrote a sad autobiography of how he wished he had never done it and had consigned himself to a life of loneliness without human relationships, being pointed at and being a curiosity to all and forever looking over his should for the next assassin. But what's worse having to act like the hardened dispationate killer in public simply to scare people into not challenging him, when the last thing he wanted to do was kill anymore and craved friendship.
 
Musashi's life is also the basis for the whole Hollywood cowboy genre.
 
 
There is also an excellent book about his life by Eiji Yoshikawa.
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 07:34
Wow excellent replies!  I never expected some interesting topics from a thread.  Keep them coming, I really need some ideas, something I can go forward and spend months researching. 

gcle2003, the battle of trafalgar is a great idea.  I have become (lately) very interested in 19th century politics, and the Battle of Trafalgar fits quite well.  I really liked that battle after watching the History Channel's feature on it.  I'm definitely going to consider this.

Interesting story Paul!  Seems like quite the character, and does seem to fit in the theme. 

I'm going to read a little more on these two topics definitely.  All other ideas are completely welcomed.       




Edited by Amirsan - 23-Aug-2006 at 07:35
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:03
You possibly might want to consider what difference it would have made to Britain had Nelson not been killed. (Incidentally, to satisfy Paul, this takes it out of the war context a bit.)
 
In reality Britain's main ware hero was the conservative, authoritarian. aristocratic Duke of Wellington, who became a leading politician and prime minister largely of course because of his reputation.
 
If Nelson had survived there would have been two war heroes, with Nelson the more glamorous and charismatic. And Nelson  was - for his day anyway - no conservative, in fact pretty radical and democratic in his attitude to the people in general.
 
It's interesting to speculate what difference the rivalry of the two would have made to the political history of Britain up till around 1830 or even later.
 
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:17
Heraclius.

I know this is rather brief, but hey, do we really need to hear the story over and over? Tongue
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 09:19
Duke of Wellington is also called Lord Castlereagh?  Or are they two different people?  I assume they are, but wasn't Lord Castlereagh also a big name in the Napoleonic-Post Napoleonic era?

I have to say I am particularly interested in this era, especially with people like Metternich, Disraeli, Castlereagh, Bismarck, etc.  The 19th century was definitely an interesting time period. 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 10:22
Originally posted by Amirsan

Duke of Wellington is also called Lord Castlereagh?  Or are they two different people?  I assume they are, but wasn't Lord Castlereagh also a big name in the Napoleonic-Post Napoleonic era?

I have to say I am particularly interested in this era, especially with people like Metternich, Disraeli, Castlereagh, Bismarck, etc.  The 19th century was definitely an interesting time period. 
 
Two different people, same political party (Tories). Castlereagh was prime minister but committed suicide in 1822, when he was followed by Lord Liverpool. Wellington was in Liverpool's Cabinet, but when Liverpool died of a stroke, Canning was preferred to Wellington or Peel as successor, and Wellington resigned in protest, only to become prime minister himself a little later.
 
In politics Wellington was an arch-conservative but oddly perhaps his government passed the Roman Catholic emancipation bill.


Edited by gcle2003 - 25-Aug-2006 at 10:24
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 10:28
Yes yes, now I remember.  Thanks for the refreshment gcle2003.  I remember also Lord Wellington participating in some conferences with Castlereagh and after with Metternich as well.  Just a bit rusty, but I remember his name thrown around when skimming Kissinger's A World Restored for a school project.

Anyways, I'm not sure how this theme would fit with any of the characters you mentioned, including Metternich, besides what was suggested before about Nelson.  If anyone has any idea, please let me know! :)
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 10:42
Any other ideas?
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 11:27
Regarding warfare, you could present a smaller study, focusing on, for instance, a comparison between the media of a victor and a defeated nation. It is an assignment of moderate dificulty and you have a great range of conflict to chose from, from the 16th century till today.
 
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 19:49
Interesting idea Frederick.  Hmm, from the 16th century... why not maybe a conflict in which the media was for the first time involved at all?  Particularly something before the 20th century I am thinking.  
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  Quote Amirsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2006 at 15:08
Sorry to bump this, but any other ideas?    
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