The Invincible Navy?

I'd have to revise my sources but I found that date in somewhere. Your point is right, British navy was defeated in a land asault but was also an asault by sea.  A mix.

Edited by Barbarroja - 14-Sep-2006 at 12:25

Well, OK. It was a siege by land but with suport by sea. We cannot consider a naval battle at 100 %.

Edited by gcle2003 - 16-Sep-2006 at 08:05

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Yes, Sparten, and let us not forget when a Scotsman by the name of John Paul Jones beat the British ship the Serapis with the American ship Bon Homme Richard. This American victory was on British seas, making it even more humiliating.

Erm No!

Pearson chose to forfeit his superior manoeverability to lock his ship against the Bonhomme Richard to allow the convoy he was protecting to escape. That convoy (41 ships)  was carrying Scandanavian wood and masts to the various shipyards which then went on to build Nelson's Navy which defeated the combined Spanish/ french Navy at Trafalgar. The Bon Homme Richard became a crab hutch the day after battle. John Paul Jones captured the heavily damaged Serapis which the Royal Navy had previously captured from the French anyway. Jones only suceeded because
1 Jones' ship held the Serapis and couldn't manoever and
2 His other ship - The Alliance. pounded Pearson's ship from the other side from a distance and
3 Jones got lucky when a grenade thrown from the Bonhomme Richard went down several decks and ignited the Serapis' powder which killed most of the Serapis crew.

The story that Jones' ship was out gunned by the Serapis is true - he had four fewer guns. Of course when you add the Alliance that pounded the locked Serapis from a distance Pearson was hopelessly out gunned. The phrase "I have not begun to fight" was probably true and understood as had he been captured he would certainly have been hanged as a traitor. he had no choice but to fight.

Meanwhile Jones let 41 ships escape full of wood for the Royal Navy.

In other words

A FAILURE.

Happy to put your view of history correct.

Eric - The Filey Bay Initiative.
 

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis As to mission objectives it was at best a draw tactically....strategically a failure in the commerce raiding and interdiction as you note...but the more important strategic qualifier 'morale' considering time and context...a victory for the fledgling Continental Navy. Welcome aboard. A finale note: A slight edge 'tactical' argument can be made for the Americans... as they held the field and had gained a superior vessel (two if one counts the 'Alliance's' forcing the 'Countess's' surrender) upon completion of the engagement...coupled to the loss of one of their ships. More importantly however was the lessons learned....in facing a first rate British vessel and crew. Iow. gunnery at distance was inferior as a tactic; leading to maneuvering to board. Desperate but yet ntl viable. This would change eventually but at Flamborough Head, still a norm.

First of all thank you for the welcome.

The Countess of Scarborough was a sloop and I understand that on firing its 10 guns at the Pallas the cannonballs were simply lodging in the woodwork, having no effect whatsoever. However by surrendering precious time was gained to allow the important merchant vessels to escape. Jones didn't capitalise on his success and took his prize to Dunkirk he should have hunted down the rest of the convoy.

You could argue that the Royal Navy were lax in not defending such an important convoy with more armed vessels.

It is clear though that in terms of morale boost it was an American victory.

An astute response...and as to your last two points I concur.
As I recall he had some difficulties with his subordinates on what he-they should have done after the fight...but don't hold me to that. It's been a long time since I read his reports.

That sort of dialogue 'disappeared' after the Articles of War firmly established the relationships between Commanders and subordinates.

And if you find any links reference your above feel free to let us know the details.

CV

http://www.fileybay.com/hlfazlx1/hlftitle.htm