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The Battle of Thermopylae - Persian View

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Thermopylae - Persian View
    Posted: 07-Oct-2009 at 13:43
Well, yes there are figures that might approximate the Persian version, but you would not like them since they are really Frankish! Sorry, but I am a "revisionist!"
Thus I support Waltier / Gaultier / Gautier de Brienne was a middle ages substitution for Xerxes, etc.! And I support Jean / John / Jacques de la Roche, the Duc de Athena / Athens, as the counterpart for Leonaidas!

These events actually happened in or about 1275 CE! Gregrovius, a great German historian even saw the connection. That is the words both said by Xeres and those by de Brienne!

Please search for "300 knights, de la Roche, 1275 AD", etc.? You might well find this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_de_la_Roche   And more if you are dilligent?

Also see: "the account of the “First Sacred War (595-586 BC)”;
The Thessalians retaliated with a massive invasion of Phokia.

A reconnaisance force of 300 Phokians under Gelon was destroyed to the man, prompting a panic among the Phokians. All their women, children and goods were collected and placed under the charge of 30 men with orders to kill them and burn the goods if the Thessalians should prevail in the coming battle (a.k.a. "The Phocian Despair")."

Did you know this?


Edited by opuslola - 07-Oct-2009 at 14:07
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2009 at 13:16
Originally posted by Penelope

Originally posted by Sparten

And you doubt that because?
 
 
Xerxes took 4 yrs to prepare for this event, becuase he had to gather resources/money/soldiers/. It took him so long becuase of the simple fact that he had to raise a huge army. And by "huge army", i mean an army of around 300,000 to 500,000 soldiers. Think about it, Persia was a gigantic empire. So, knowing what happened at the Battle Of Marathon under Darius The Great, why would Xerxes take 4 yrs to just send an army of only 20,000 soldiers to march deep inside of Greece, only to barely be able to win at Thermopylea, and then march on to Sack the city of Athens, and leave a very large occupation force before returning to Babylon? Wouldn't that be too much of a gamble?


İts impossible the raise 300.000/500.000 people 2500 years ago. İts impossible the feed and control them at this ages. Raise a army and make a campaign is not easy as you think. And yuo must know population of world is not high at this ages. Look this link.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html


Campaing with 500.000 man  there are no campaing at first age and middle age. only last 200 years we see armies at this size. Before that armies are much lesser.


Edited by İskit - 07-Oct-2009 at 13:23
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2009 at 12:32
Originally posted by opuslola

As I have mentioned on another place within this site;

The Greeks had about; 300 Spartans and thier attendants; about 700 Thesbians and their attendants; and about 400 Thebans and their attendants, who were forced to stay and fight! Plus, 1000 Phocians who were supposed to have guarded the secret path(s)!

Thus the grand total was approximately 2,500 knights, plus any attendants who were required to remain. So, the total may well have been nearer 8,000 total!

And, the above totals may well be also exaggerated as is the number of Persians and their allies! Logistics are hell, and as far as I am concerned, the world only had the ability to move 30,000 or 60,000 troops along with their supporting elements, in the times of Napoleon! And, those wars did nothing but decimate the entirety of Europe!

Even in WWII, the movement of more than 50,000 fighting men was an immense effort! Supplies, supplies, etc.! Can you imagine an army in the times of Cyrus, with a size of 200,000 + moving over land by day? Even if the narrow trails that probably existed then could not allow a line of more than 5 or 6 troops side by side! If the beginning line of 5 could make a march at the rate of 4 miles per hour, how many lines of 5 would you have to make to accomodate 200,000 fighting men? Lets see" Oh, yeah, there would be 40,000 lines of five! And, if that line was spaced but six feet between the line in front, then that entire line would extend for 240,000 feet! Lets see? That line of troops would have stretched for over 40 miles! Unless my math is horrible? So, if your 200000 troops were expected to march for 10 hours, they would have covered, at 4 miles per hour, exactly 40 miles! Thus, when they were making camp for the night, the last line was just beginning the march! And men would continue to come into contact with the rear of those in front of them for the next ten hours! But, just where could you find enough open land for them? It seems then, that they would then just walk until space allowed them no further space to go forward. Assuming that 40 men could be given resting space along the pathway every 40 feet (one linear foot per soldier), then the first line and those close behind,lets say, make their claim to sleeping and eating ground, whilst behind them another 40 men, who also have to stop and make their on space etc. Suddenly, all of those thousands of men behind them, if they were able to keep good order, were also forced to stop, as if on a dime, and make their own quarters for the night, but the night was all those last in line had? Thus whilst the first few hundred lines might well have marched 40 miles, those behind might only march 20 miles, etc., or most, even less!

Do you see why it is irresponsible to assume such large figures?

The figures found during reports of the Crusades, which reportedly happened about 1400 years later, are more reasonable, with numbers like 300 knights, 500 knights, and 100 light cavalry, and some 200 archers, being a good fighting force! Were these men any less superman than those supposedly ancient Greeks or Persians?


It is an interesting topic and in undergrad school I did a research paper about the battle of Thermopylae. If I can ever find it I will reread and add to this thread. I thought that the movie 300 was such revision history that it insulted history itself. The Xerxes in 300 looked more like a crack head from the 21st century. The real Xerxes was nothing like what 300 showed and after slaying the messenger sent by Xerxes it was the Spartan who sent emissaries to apologize for killing their messenger. The great Historian Will Durant has a whole chapter about this in "The Light of Greece." For the educated people like us we knew it was revision history but for the kids or uneducated who knows!!! ?

I know most sources about this battle are Greek but are there any Persian sources? name them please

Edited by eaglecap - 07-Oct-2009 at 12:36
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2009 at 12:21
As I have mentioned on another place within this site;

The Greeks had about; 300 Spartans and thier attendants; about 700 Thesbians and their attendants; and about 400 Thebans and their attendants, who were forced to stay and fight! Plus, 1000 Phocians who were supposed to have guarded the secret path(s)!

Thus the grand total was approximately 2,500 knights, plus any attendants who were required to remain. So, the total may well have been nearer 8,000 total!

And, the above totals may well be also exaggerated as is the number of Persians and their allies! Logistics are hell, and as far as I am concerned, the world only had the ability to move 30,000 or 60,000 troops along with their supporting elements, in the times of Napoleon! And, those wars did nothing but decimate the entirety of Europe!

Even in WWII, the movement of more than 50,000 fighting men was an immense effort! Supplies, supplies, etc.! Can you imagine an army in the times of Cyrus, with a size of 200,000 + moving over land by day? Even if the narrow trails that probably existed then could not allow a line of more than 5 or 6 troops side by side!

If the beginning line of 5 could make a march at the rate of 4 miles per hour, how many lines of 5 would you have to make to accomodate 200,000 fighting men? Lets see" Oh, yeah, there would be 40,000 lines of five! And, if that line was spaced but six feet between the line in front, then that entire line would extend for 240,000 feet! Lets see? That line of troops would have stretched for over 40 miles! Unless my math is horrible?

So, if your 200000 troops were expected to march for 10 hours, they would have covered, at 4 miles per hour, exactly 40 miles! Thus, when they were making camp for the night, the last line was just beginning the march! And men would continue to come into contact with the rear of those in front of them for the next ten hours at the least!

But, just where could you find enough open land for them? It seems then, that they would then just walk until space allowed them no further space to go forward. Assuming that 40 men could be given resting space along the pathway every 40 feet (one linear foot per soldier), then the first line and those close behind,lets say, make their claim to sleeping and eating ground, whilst behind them another 40 men, who also have to stop and make their on space etc.

Suddenly, all of those thousands of men behind them, if they were able to keep good order, were also forced to stop, as if on a dime, and make their own quarters for the night, while others continued to run into them! But the night was all those last in line had? (remember they had to wait at least ten hours just to began the march!

Thus whilst the first few hundred lines might well have marched 40 miles, those behind might only march 20 miles, etc., or most, even less!

Do you see why it is irresponsible to assume such large figures?

The figures found during reports of the Crusades, which reportedly happened about 1400 years later, are more reasonable, with numbers like 300 knights, 500 knights, and 100 light cavalry, and some 200 archers, being a good fighting force! Were these men any less supermen than those supposedly ancient Greeks or Persians?

I think not!

Edited by opuslola - 07-Oct-2009 at 12:27
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  Quote Xshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 02:52
If you guys think that the picture of Xerxes is bad, dont even attempt to watch the trailer. I did, and well I thought I'd share a couple screenshots with those who dont have a broadband connection and cant download the HD trailer:
 
Spartans shoving Persians off a cliff
Xerxes....Bald and Mostly Naked
Persian Emissary coming to warn Spartans not to resist
Persian Emissary up close
Umm....I dont even want to guess, but if I had to, I would guess these are the Immortals
Persian Army, running
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5471/30011tv6.png
Persian, saying to spartans "our arrows will blott out the sun" to which the spartan replies "then we'll have to fight in the shade"
As promised, the Persian Arrows blotting out the sun
Close-up of Persian Arrows
Xerxes again
Greek Battle-Rhino masscring Persians.....buhh?
 
yeah, i'm going to leave you to think about the battle rhino. At least like it was mentioned, we have Cyrus to look forward to, and hopefully Prince of Persia doesnt get massacred by Disney.
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  Quote Khashayarshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 18:10
the battle of thermanopoly was a pathetic resistance for the spartans. it wasnt a real part of the war. it was a slaughter.
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  Quote Shiroyeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 21:41
^ Last thing I heard was a couple of months ago.. Alex Jovy was in an interview and he said that they have finally got all of the funding for the film (~80,000,000USD). Its being done by a British studio so it wont be hollywood rubbish.

Edited by Shiroyeh - 01-Oct-2006 at 21:42
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  Quote kingofmazanderan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 20:48
So have they started making this Cyrus movie yet?  I think i heard a few people talking about it before.  What can you guys tell me about it?
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  Quote Shiroyeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 18:16
So this film is basically going to ridicule Persians/Iranians a lot more than 'Alexander' did... I think for the most part people with some inteligance know that hollywood will never roll a film out which is historically accurate.


...oh well, atleast we have 'Cyrus' to look forward to
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 00:13
Originally posted by Ey_Iran

Then Alexander the evil came and made slaves and killed all in persepolis. Raped and took away women their democratic rights. Forcing greek tyrannic undemocratic rule.
 
Yes, it is true, Alexander did sack Persepolis after a party in which he was drunken as hell.
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 22:43
Originally posted by Afghanan

is there any Persian sources of the battle?




No.

All we know about this war comes from the Greek. Most of that comes from Herodotus.

Getting corroberation for just about anything Herorotus had to say about Persian history from roughly contemporary Persian sources can't really be done.

And Herodotus had a pretty clear agenda in making the Greek look good as free men ruled by the laws, as opposed to the Persians who are not bad or lacking in virtue, but handicapped by being under a despotic rule.

Modern Iranians can feel free to disagree of course. This was the ancient Greek view of things. Making the Ionian cities tributaries cheesed off at least the Athenians no end it seems. And the effect of this war was in fact that the Greek liberated the Ionian cities and then took the offensive against the Persian empire. That much is evident. It established a Greek hegemony in all military matters, including the fact that the Persian rulers started recruiting Greek mercenaries by the thousands.

As for slavery, the ancient Greek response would have been that of course the Great King abolished slavery. Everyone of his subjects was a slave of his. For the Greek one of the points of being a free man was to be able to own slaves. That was how you could tell. If the Persians didn't have any, it was because the only free man in Persia was the Great King/the despot himself.

And I'm not writing this to piss anyone off, but in order to try to explain what kind of society the Greek had and how the viewed Persia. And I think that's what Frank Miller picked up from Herodotus. Of course, in comparison Herodotus also has a lot of quite positive things to say about the Persians, which Frank Miller unfortunately didn't see fit to try to include. Instead he went down the road of playing up the Persians as some kind of barbaric, servile slaves, a kind of stereotype of the greasy "Oriental". The Greek never really did that.

But be that as it may, the situation is still that the best source for Persian history of the period is what the Greek wrote about them, though that has to be treated with considerable caution.
There are official inscriptions, a number of decrees etc. made by the Persian rulers themselves, but in order to get narrative, a story that gives us an outline for making sense of it all, it's Greek writers all the way, with the mentions in the Bible thrown in for good measure.

It's unfortunately not quite possible to understand Persian society in the detail we can work things out about the Greek. The discrepancy in their itch to write and comment was just too huge.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 05:44
Ey_Iran, I have previously asked you to look at the rules before you post again, obviously you have not.
 
Warning's in the post.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 22:45
Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by Penelope

Spartakus, when King Bardylis of Illyria invaded and subjigated Epirus, it is said that the Spartans then invaded Epirus, defeated Bardylis, and pushed him back to Illyria in 385 bc.
Now if im not mistaken, Bardylis conquered Epirus with a large army. I was just wondering if you are anyone else could tell me approximately how many soldiers did Sparta use in order to accomplish the victory.
Diodoros , the ancient writer that mentioned this part of history never said numbers.So is hard to find out the numbers.
 
Fair enough.
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  Quote Ey_Iran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:24
Then Alexander the evil came and made slaves and killed all in persepolis. Raped and took away women their democratic rights. Forcing greek tyrannic undemocratic rule.
=)
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  Quote Ey_Iran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:21
Wath the f**k you people didnt know? Its till in the france national museum. They didnt have slaves cause Iran, not persia it was wath the greeks called us. Iran have been called Iran for 7000 years.  Anyway Iran was the land of the free.

The First Charter Of Human Rights Written By The Iranian / Persian Emperor, Kourosh The Great, 2,500 Years Ago

I Am Kourosh The Great King... Now That I Put The Crown Of The Kingdom Of Persia.., Babylon.., And The Nations Of The Four Directions On The Head With The Help Of Ahura.., I Announce That I Will Respect The Traditions.., Customs And Religions Of The Nations Of My Empire And Never Let Any Of My Governors And Subordinates Look Down On Or Insult Them While I Am Alive... I Will Impose My Monarchy On No Nation... Each Is Free To Accept It, And If Any One Of Them Rejects It.., I Never Resolve On War To Reign... While I Am The King... I Will Never Let Anyone Oppress Others... I Will Never Let Anyone Take Possession Of Movable And Landed Properties Of The Others By Force Or Without Compensation... While I Am Alive.., I Will Prevent Unpaid.., Forced Labor... Today.., I Announce That Everyone Is Free To Choose A Religion... No One Could Be Penalized For His Or Her Relatives' Faults...

Kourosh The Great


http://www.venusproject.com/Great_Persian_Empire/kourosh_the_great.html
=)
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 16:00
Ey_Iran, where did you read all this?
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 15:59
"Well there is persia... The first charter of human rights. Syrus the founder of persia made laws, no slaves allowed. Women have equal power et c. Persepolis was built by payed workers and some female supervisors! PErsia had no slaves ever and it existed. As soon as Alexander the god of War died the greek army was crushed."
 
Actually they had slaves...
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 15:39
Originally posted by Ey_Iran

  
Well there is persia... The first charter of human rights. Syrus the founder of persia made laws, no slaves allowed. Women have equal power et c. Persepolis was built by payed workers and some female supervisors! PErsia had no slaves ever and it existed. As soon as Alexander the god of War died the greek army was crushed.
 
How naive can people be!!!!!!!LOLLOLLOL
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 05:13
Originally posted by Penelope

Spartakus, when King Bardylis of Illyria invaded and subjigated Epirus, it is said that the Spartans then invaded Epirus, defeated Bardylis, and pushed him back to Illyria in 385 bc.
Now if im not mistaken, Bardylis conquered Epirus with a large army. I was just wondering if you are anyone else could tell me approximately how many soldiers did Sparta use in order to accomplish the victory.
Diodoros , the ancient writer that mentioned this part of history never said numbers.So is hard to find out the numbers.
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  Quote Ey_Iran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 02:33
Originally posted by Spartakus

 Sparta had a very complex govermental system ,with elements from oligarchy,monarchy and democracy:the 2 kings-monarchy,the Apella and the 5 ephors-democracy,the Senet-Oligarchy.It relied on slaves,yes,but it would be foolish to say that in order to accuse them.In the Ancient World  ,slaves were a standard class,on the very bottom of Ancient societes.There were no civilizations in the known Ancient World without any kind of slavery,physical or mental.
 


Well there is persia... The first charter of human rights. Syrus the founder of persia made laws, no slaves allowed. Women have equal power et c. Persepolis was built by payed workers and some female supervisors! PErsia had no slaves ever and it existed. As soon as Alexander the god of War died the greek army was crushed.
=)
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