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Topic ClosedA question for Mongolian Chinese or Mongolian.

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Sirdar Bahadur

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: A question for Mongolian Chinese or Mongolian.
    Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:03

blitz, are you a Klsche Jung?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 16:35

Originally posted by Temujin

blitz, are you a Klsche Jung?
Nee, I'm not german, but I'm europian.I have german citizenschip. How about you?

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 23:59

"Actually the earliest evidence of the word Middle Kingdom was found in the scripts of Western Zhou."

i mean the term, china!

the english term of china was drived from chin.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 12:23
Its actually derived from a indian sascrit, Qin from China is a old and discarded theory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 12:59
Originally posted by blitz

Nee, I'm not german, but I'm europian.I have german citizenschip. How about you?

I'm native German myself.  so I guess you're a foreign student studying here?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 16:10

"Its actually derived from a indian sascrit"

no, its not.

both sino and china were derived from the word chin.

that's what it says in many chinese history text books.

please provide some source if u claim otherwise.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 19:51

"no, its not.

both sino and china were derived from the word chin."

 

No, I repeat,l thats an old misconception thats already sdiscarded by well learned scholars of today.

"that's what it says in many chinese history text books."

 

And these are wrong. China sounds nothing like Qin.

 

"please provide some source if u claim otherwise."

 

Grousset's "rise and splendour of Chinese Empire"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 23:14

The English word "China" and prefix "Sino-" probably came from "Qin" (pronounced halfway between "Chin" and "Tsin"). Others believe that China may have been derived from the Chinese word for tea (cha) or silk (Chinese si, Latin seres). In any circumstance, the word China passed through many languages along the Silk Road before it finally reached Europe. The Western "China", transliterated to Shina (x) has also been used by Japanese since the nineteenth century, and has since evolved into a derogatory term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China 
What is the origin of the word China? It is derived from the two words 'Chung' and 'Kuo'. 'Chung' means the human heart. 'Kuo' refers to the country. The word 'China' therefore means that 'My heart is my country'.
http://sai_maa108.tripod.com/chinese/chinese.htm 
Author: Helmut Lalla

The origin of the European word "China". Nice question. But I think we have to search on a third place for the answer.


>
> When did the Europeans learn about China ?
>

Well, clearly before they called it "China".
Before 1000 a.D., there was hardly any direct contact. But of course, the Romans knew that someone had produced the silk, which they liked so much.
I read that the Bycantine (or East-Roman) empire sent a handful of missions to China between 500 and 800 a.D..
The Romans and the Bycantines called the country "Sina" or "Thina" ('th' pronounced as in English).
The Europeans got really in contact with China only in the 13th and 14th century, when the creation of the Mongolian empire provided a relatively safe overland access route. Marco Polo was only one out of many to make the trip. But it was his book, written by a professional book author named Rustichello, that made Marco Polo famous and China known to a wider public in Europe, under the names of "Catai" (north of the Yellow River) and "Mangi" (south of the Yellow River). "Catai" became the common European name for China.

>
> Where does the European word "China" come from ?
>

The Enciclopedia Italiana claims the following (shortened): The name "China" was picked up by the Portuguese from the Indians or from the Malays, shortly before they actually reached China, (i.e. about 1500-1515). From Portugal, the name spread all over Europe. It was the first time used on a European world map in 1537.

This makes sense to me.
1.) Before 1500 you still find the word "Catai" used. Only when using Latin, "sina" was still applied.
2.) The Portuguese explorers used the word "China" already when arriving there. (No way to mix up with Latin "sina".)
3.) The word "Chin" for China is used by Turkish, Persians and in India. (No idea about Malay.) I would rather suspect, that the Portuguese picked it up from the Arab or Persian merchants, which they met in the Indian ocean area. The Portuguese did not know any Indian or Malay languages (nor vice-versa), but they could talk with the Arabs, of course.

This changes the question into:
"Where did the Indians, Persians and Arabs get the name 'chin' from ?"
The puzzle must be solved there, not in Europe.

The same encyclopedia claims that the name can be found in buddhist books from the 5th century (without being more specific) and that it "most probably" derives from the Qin dinasty (but without quoting any evidence).

Even though "China" is surely not derived from Latin "sina", it looks as if the same name arrived in Europe twice from the Middle East. First as Greek/Roman "Sina", later as Portuguese "China".

>
> Where does the word "sinology" come from ?
>

From the Latin word "sina" and the Greek word "logos" (speech or sense). All names of sciences have been assembled using Latin or Greek.
http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=2&i=1637&t =1625 


The cultural relations between India and China can be traced back to very early times. There are numerous references to China in Sanskrit texts, but their chronology is sketchy. The Mahabharata refers to China several times, including a reference to presents brought by the Chinese at the Rajasuya Yajna of the Pandavas; also, the Arthasastra and the Manusmriti mention China. According to French art historian, Rene Grousset, the name China comes from "an ancient" Sanskrit name for the regions to the east, and not, as often supposed, from the name of the state of Ch'in," the first dynasty established by Shih Huang Ti in 221 B.C. The Sanskrit name Cina for China could have been derived from the small state of that name in Chan-si in the northwest of China, which flourished in the fourth century B.C. Scholars have pointed out that the Chinese word for lion, shih, used long before the Chin dynasty, was derived from the Sanskrit word, simha, and that the Greek word for China, Tzinista, used by some later writers, appears to be derivative of the Sanskrit Chinasthana. According to Terence Duke, martial arts went from India to China. Fighting without weapons was a specialty of the ancient Kshatriya warriors of India. Both Arnold Toynbee and Sir L. Wooley speak of a ready made culture coming to China. That was the Vedic culture of India. 

Until recently, India and China had coexisted peacefully for over two thousand years. This amicable relationship may have been nurtured by the close historical and religious ties of Buddhism, introduced to China by Indian monks at a very early stage of their respective histories, although there are fragmentary records of contacts anterior to the introduction of Buddhism. 

Gerolamo Emilio Gerini (1860 -1913) has said: gDuring the three or four centuries, preceding the Christian era, we find Indu (Hindu) dynasties established by adventurers, claiming descent from the Kshatriya potentates of northern India, ruling in upper Burma, in Siam and Laos, in Yunnan and Tonkin, and even in most parts of southeastern China."  The Chinese literature of the third century is full of geographic and mythological elements derived from India. "I see no reason to doubt," comments Arthur Waley in his book, The Way and its Power, "that the 'holy mountain-men' (sheng-hsien) described by Lieh Tzu are Indian rishi; and when we read in Chuang Tzu of certain Taoists who practiced movements very similar to the asanas of Hindu yoga, it is at least a possibility that some knowledge of the yoga technique which these rishi used had also drifted into China." 
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_and_China.htm 


China

Interestingly, China is not a Chinese word. The OED2 says that it is found in Sanskrit writings from about two thousand years ago, and appears in various forms in several Asian languages. The earliest European usage is by Marco Polo, and the earliest cited English usage dates from 1555.

The American Heritage Dictionary gives the origin as being a corruption of the name of the Qin dynasty, which ruled China in the third century BC.
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorc.htm 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 23:41
To Blitz
Wie gehts dir mein Freund? My wife and I suggest you make a trip to Inner Mongolia and the Republic of Mongolia to get a first hand observation and comparison of Mongol culture there.
Inner Mongolia produced among the best musicians recognized by both Mongolias:
a. Tengger - He got the top award in the mongolian music fest held in Ulan Bataar in 1990. He is still active and has many albums available. He is a Chahar Mongol
b. Chi Burage - The world's greatest expert in the Moriin Khuur , the most important traditional musical instrument of all mongols. He will conduct a 100% Moriin Khuur performance with 1000 players to commemorate the 2008 Beijing Olympics. He has western, japanese, Han Chinese,
inner/outer mongols, Koreans, and even some afro students
. He is a Horqin Mongol.
c. Dedema - She is a widely acclaimed singer in both mongolias, she is Tumaat.
d. Altan Ceqceq- Another highly acclaimed female singer in both mongolias. She is Kharachin like Badema.
e. 4 Wolves- Tengger's band, also highly acclaimed in both mongolias.
f. Siqin Gerile - The youngest, and hottest rock and roll
singer from Inner Mongolia. She got the top rock and roll
award in 2003 in the golden rooster music festival in HK.
She is Horqin .
All the above are fluent in mongolian and grew up speaking mongolian like my wife.

r's
Clive/Badema
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 04:51

anyways, im just curious.

do u speak mandarin?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 05:15

Badema ch geh shig, iim mongol ner haana baidag yum? Badamaa geech. Er em egshigiin yalgaag medehgyi baij bitgii mongol heltei gej hutsaa.

I only heard about Tengger. He got famous because he sang the theme of an inner mongolian tv drama about mongolian rebels against chinese. A year ago he came with a concert and in an interview he went like "our beloved leader Hu Jintao" etc, so only about 100 people watched his concert. Other people are unknown in Mongolia, no wonder, they probably all perform in chinese.

On the other hand, Inner Mongolia is the only market where our performers make money. Selling albums in Mongolia is not really profitable.

Check out what's really happening on the musical front: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/26/news/letter.html The article from NYT is called like "Mongolian heavy metal leaves Chinese panicky "

It's a funny situation with mongolian rock. Inner mongolians sing on tv old rock songs from Mongolia in a traditionalized manner which makes it sound really weird.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 05:57
Originally posted by Elteber


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China 

What is the origin of the word China? It is derived from the two words 'Chung' and 'Kuo'. 'Chung' means the human heart. 'Kuo' refers to the country. The word 'China' therefore means that 'My heart is my country'.
http://sai_maa108.tripod.com/chinese/chinese.htm 
[quote]

What a strupid idea is this? He must be a chinese who wrote this, like so many 16 bill. chinese.

Veritas lux mea est!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 06:27
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Originally posted by coolstorm

"With regards China, there is no China that time."

the Han culture means China. The term, China, refers to the middle kingdom, and the descendants of Huangdi.

It was drived from the chin dynasty which unified the chinese world in 221 bc.

there was china during that time and it was song. however, north china was occupied by the jerchens. yet, the jerchens were later incorporated into the han culture.

all descendants of haungdi mean china. han, tang, song are all chinese dynasties, yuan and manchu are foreign.

 

OH, THIS HLPLESS CHILD, GO BACK TO ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, IF YOU ARE SIMPLY BE REPEATING WHAT THE text book says.

 

 

WAHT A REAL CRAP YOU GUBUK, i thought you know something abot chinese history, but you know nothing!!!!

 

 


Coolstorm..for once I agree with you.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 09:54

Hi cliveerknell and Badema,

Danke, es geht mir gut!  It would be nice to make such trip. I indeed plan to go to Mongolia with my outer mongolian buddies this summer. Maybe also to inner Mongolia.

But I still believe my friend's father. He said that inner mongolians are ethnically cinified.

The outer mongolians look very different from inner mongolians(whom I know), strong, heavy, skinnful, with "big" head,  whereas the inner mongolian guys are very chinese looking with bad teeth, thin, who speak little bit mongolian with chinese dialect.

Thank you.

PS:There was in about 1960 chinese state campaign against many inner mongolians which were killed  in chinese prisons. Is it true?

 



Edited by blitz
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 16:52
So many people have broken the rules of the forum in this thread (such as speaking in Non-English languages, insulting, etc) that I have to close it unfortunately.
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