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Posts: 1423 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: What does it actually take, to be a Christian?
    Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 00:46


I honestly believe that to be a Christian, a person MUST believe in the Bible. If you don't believe in the Bible and believe in Christ as your savior, then you have some of the worst logic ever. The only source for Christ being the "Son of God" is the Bible, and if you reject that and still believe in Christ, you have NO source for your beliefs whatsoever.



Bible is not our destination. God also is beyond logic.

An illiterate could be saved without reading the Bible. Reading it is not indispensable because not the ideas from Bible save a man but the direct revelation of Holy Spirit to a man. We have also to be awared about the fake phenomenons, devilish simulations.




    

Edited by Menumorut - 08-Aug-2006 at 00:46

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But the man would still have had that belief in Christ from somebody that believed in the Bible, no?

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Posts: 1423 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 09:38
   

In Christian Orthodox theological literature, it`s mentioned about two ways of approaching God: one is the cataphatic way, meaning that man affirm about God that He is good, infinite and so. The study of Bible is a cataphatic way of approaching God.


The other way, called apophatic, considered the real way of getting close to God, is to renounce to affirmations and even to clean up your mind of any ideas about God and to wait He to reveal to you AS HE REALLY IS.

Bible is useful because it provides us with a perspective about an Alive and Person(s) God. Also with the commands of renouncement at wordly life, of the necesity of loving our neighbour and of not arise ourselves with pride.

But when we start search for the real knowledge of God, we must make abstraction about any idea about God and base ourselves only on senzorial experiences, not theoretical speculations.

And we have to be aware that we have to reject any experience which appears as a 'supernatural' experience. At first sight seems to be a paradox, but actualy God doesnt communicate with us by intermediating things like apparitions. In fact He doesnt communicate at all, the idea of communication is a human preconception.


    
    
    
    

Edited by Menumorut - 08-Aug-2006 at 09:40

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Posts: 4262 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 10:14
Old question:
Didnt Christ ask more of His followers?

Originally posted by boomajoom

He did. But he never said "You must do X and Y and Z as well as believe on me in order to get into heaven".

I dont know quite what you mean here - he certainly said a number of things for Christians to follow - fulfilling the law.
My questions are not only about going to heaven or not - but how Jesus thought Christians to be and behave in order to be recognized as his followers - then and now.

Old question:
A couple of questions more from the top of my head - can a wealthy man be a Christian? - can a soldier (who is learning to kill) be a Christian?
Originally posted by boomajoom

Why not? The Law prohibits murder, but people are always killing each other in battle throughout the Bible. As far as a wealthy man...there is nothing wrong with being blessed by God, but there is something wrong with extortion. It is possible to gain wealth through honest means, and these people aren't punished. Those who extort and don't repent are.

I dont think I ever read anything in the Bible where Christ condoned to kill or murder - war or not. IMO killing is not according to his teachings - but explicitly the contrary - ie. "Love Thy enemy".
The Bible contains stories about wars and battles, yes - but that is hardly an excuse to do the opposit of His teachings.
He never lead or encouraged anyone to war or to kill.

If you ask more for your favors than you need - what is that, if not greed and extortion?
How high interest can you take before you are "not honest"?
IMO is it only possible to become wealthy - if others become poorer. Locally as well as globally.
Is that in the spirit of Christ - ie. will you recognize and accept a loanshark as Christian?
Who defines honest?

Of course I'm putting things on the edge here, but I really think Christians needs to redefine their own  Christianity if they want to see themselves as true followers of Christ.



Edited by Northman - 08-Aug-2006 at 10:19
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Posts: 1800 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 18:23
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I honestly believe that to be a Christian, a person MUST believe in the Bible. If you don't believe in the Bible and believe in Christ as your savior, then you have some of the worst logic ever. The only source for Christ being the "Son of God" is the Bible, and if you reject that and still believe in Christ, you have NO source for your beliefs whatsoever.
 
Yes, this is correct.  I think that a Christian must accept all or nothing of the Bible.  One cannot pick-and-choose in the Bible what is true/untrue or what is allegory/metaphor in their own minds.  Either one believes all of the Bible is true or nothing at all is true. 
 
So, I believe in a literal interpretation.  Many people (especially non-believers) have problems with the "literal interpretation."  They smuggly remark things like "Well, if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God, you believe in slaughtering thousands of people and taking their lands like the Hebrews did in the Old Testament."  Generally people who say this have a pre-conceived hatred for Christianity, for the most part because they think it has "too many rules" and they "hate being told what to do and what not to do."  If they would only read Paul's epistles they would find out that Christ has set those who believe in him free and that they have great freedom.  Not, obviously, to sin and commit atrocities.  Christians who rely on the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures as their guide, and who are held accountable by other believers do not fall into extremism and thus give true Christians a bad name.
 
Originally posted by boomajoom

Agreed with you up to here. I think it isn't for us to decide whether or not Benny Hinn has repented of sin. We don't know. He might. He might not. We might see in his actions a man who is greedy and power-hungry. That much we do know, but the rest we don't.
 
Yes, this is what I meant.  I should not have said that I knew definitively that Benny Hinn has not repented and does not have a relationship with Christ.  God alone knows this.  Let me say that his actions and his twisting of the Word indicates that he might not have a genuine relationship or that something has gone wrong and he needs to repent of it.

Originally posted by boomajoom

As far as the second part goes, this is a very important thing to emphasize and teach on, if not the most important. BUT...it does little good to preach salvation to a group of people who are already saved. The Bible says that that's like crucifying Christ all over again, and is definitely unkool with God.
 
 
I think Benny Hinn and those like him are leading their congregations astray, if the people in the congregations genuinely know Christ or not.  Satan operates in outright lies and in half-truths.  Benny Hinn is putting forward half-truths in my opinion.  He makes it seem like becoming a Christian is all about physical miracles and healing the body (and putting a price tag on "miracles").  This is deceiving.  Becoming a Christian first and foremost involves a personal and spiritual committment to Christ.  What follows is a spiritual renewal (i.e. being born again) and the working out of a new relationship with Christ, not being healed of all bodily ailments and being shielded from harm forever more as the result of some kind of magic trick.
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 08-Aug-2006 at 18:26
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Posts: 161 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 09:41
I think that many are Christians only in the name. Few people live as true Christians and i do not mean to be religious zealout, see around you the only thing that most people interest them are the materials goods 
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 10:08
"Well, if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God, you believe in slaughtering thousands of people and taking their lands like the Hebrews did in the Old Testament."  Generally people who say this have a pre-conceived hatred for Christianity, for the most part because they think it has "too many rules" and they "hate being told what to do and what not to do."

The problem with literal interpretation of the Bible is it leads to hypocrisy. If you believe in the whole Bible, you believe that you should be able to slaughter pagans, yet you should not use violence to solve your problems(Old Testament vs. New Testament). The Bible's problem is a contradictory book, what I am saying is, that a Christian should believe all or nothing in the Bible, because it is stupid to say that the phrases about homosexuality, fornication, etc. "are not meant to be taken literally", yet Jesus being both man and god "is meant to be taken literally". For most Christian groups, taking the Bible literally would be suicide because they must be mainstream. In other words, most liberal Christian groups see that the Bible goes against reason many times, so they must say that is "not literal" or they would fall out of the mainstream Christianity.

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Posts: 357 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 11:45
- I think it is important that we discuss the main premise of Christianity, which is the crucifiction and the resurrection. The belief of Jesus' death on the cross for the sins of humanity and the resurrection to give believers eternal life is the foundation of the Christian faith. If one did not believe in the resurrection, one could not truly be a Christian.....as it was Jesus' sacrifice which gave us the chance for life everlasting.
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Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

"Well, if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God, you believe in slaughtering thousands of people and taking their lands like the Hebrews did in the Old Testament."  Generally people who say this have a pre-conceived hatred for Christianity, for the most part because they think it has "too many rules" and they "hate being told what to do and what not to do."

The problem with literal interpretation of the Bible is it leads to hypocrisy. If you believe in the whole Bible, you believe that you should be able to slaughter pagans, yet you should not use violence to solve your problems(Old Testament vs. New Testament). The Bible's problem is a contradictory book, what I am saying is, that a Christian should believe all or nothing in the Bible, because it is stupid to say that the phrases about homosexuality, fornication, etc. "are not meant to be taken literally", yet Jesus being both man and god "is meant to be taken literally". For most Christian groups, taking the Bible literally would be suicide because they must be mainstream. In other words, most liberal Christian groups see that the Bible goes against reason many times, so they must say that is "not literal" or they would fall out of the mainstream Christianity.
 
Yes, there are many verses in the Bible which is in contradiction with other verses. Specially if you compare OT to NT. Likewise - if you compare laws written 1000 years ago or more, they would be contradictionary to laws of today. We constantly change laws to adapt to the reality we live in.
 
I think Christians who claim the entirety of the Bible is equally important as guidelines for human life, - that everything is valid and should be taken literally, are wrong. There is a reason why the NT is different than the OT.

Jesus came to make new guidelines and laws, to fulfill the law (change it and make it perfect). Some of His teachings are in contradiction to the old laws which then of course, can be considered outdated and replaced.
If you're a Christian and believe in The Trinity, then Jesus is also God, and thus, His words are not overruled by anything in the OT - but replacing the laws of the OT.
Why would He even start to fulfill/change anything, if the old laws still should be considered valid? 
 
In fact, IMO - a true Christian does not need the OT at all - the words of Jesus is more than adequate as guidelines for a Christian life, and most "Christians" cant meet these standards. 
He also died on the cross, and that way took our sins upon Him - if we believe in Him, and by default - Christians should believe in Him.
 
I know many will disagree - but this is my understandings of Christianity.
No need to make it more difficult or complicated than that.
 
 
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There is only one criterion for calling someone a Christian - belief that Jesus was the Christ - either that he was divine or at least that he was chosen by God as the Saviour.
 
Otherwise he was just Jesus, not Jesus Christ, and there's no reason to call anyone who doesn't believe he is the designated Redeemer 'Christian': if he however respects Jesus' teachings, that makes him possibly a Nazarene or a Jesusite, but not a Christian.
 
As for what makes a Christian a good Christian - take your pick from a thousand flowers blooming.
 
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Posts: 2091 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 01:19
Originally posted by flyingzone

To be a good Christian, one should stop going to church, stop reading the "bible", and stop praying.
 
No, I am not trying to be cynical here. That's what I really think. My reasoning is that, if one has a real desire to be "good" (to be a "Christian"), and if God really exists, She would impact goodness directly onto you. Don't need no church, no bible, and no prayer. Just listen to the little voice of "goodness" inside you. That is already God.
 
 
And that would be to throw out the very essence of Christianity in favor of a very egocentric worldview. Is that really how to be a good Christian, or is it rather how to fit into a broadly defined category of what it means to try to be a good person. The deification of the self--and consequently of the feelings of the self outside of a scriptural and traditional (dare I say "Christian?") context--is certainly not true Christianity.
 
Originally posted by flyingzone

Good people are good people whether they go to church or not. One doesn't need to go to church to become good. In fact, I would argue the opposite - a lot of originally good people, after going to church, could end up becoming "bad" because churches, like any other human organizations, are themselves corrupt and are in turn capable of corrupting people. 
 
The same could be said for any group of people congregating together. The fault lies not with the institution, but with the individual...
 
Let me clarify that a bit. The inherent fault lies with the individual. Institutions (all of them) can complicate things, but I do not feel that the Church does.
 
Originally posted by flyingzone

If one's desire to seek "God" is real, and if "God" is really omnipotent, I can't see why one needs the church or anyone or anything else to act as an intermediary between God and you. Shouldn't God's power itself be potent enough to affect you? Shouldn't God's own "goodness" be enough for you to distinguish good from bad? Why does one need any "positive peer pressure" in order to be good or to tell good from bad? Isn't that an insult to God's power and God's own goodness?
 
When you speak with God, perhaps you could take that up with him. Why He did things the way he did is a question I have always had as well. Still, things are the way they are. I don't like paying taxes, driving 55 mph, etc., but you don't see me trying to come up with a set of rules I would be utterly unable to implement... well, maybe occasionally Wink. Still, isn't it a bit presumptuous to *ahem* presume that your plan is better than an omnipotent being's, even if you don't believe in him?
 
And by the way, there is a scriptural foundation for the authority of the Church that has been addressed more times than I can count. See John 16. Church is more than a social club for Christians; it is the repository of truth, a temple of the Holy Spirit, and, as God's kingdom, a vehicle for bringing that kingdom to fruition. If you don't choose to view the Church in this light, that is up to you, but understand how we view it.
 
 
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I have seen this nutjob. The Bible translation of "Russia" is so idiotic that it is not even funny. There was no "Russia" in Biblical times. There was only the landmass, it was not united, and the Kievan Rus was not formed for over five hundred years later. And these people think that a person that wants to make the world better by having a UN or EU type deal is the anti-Christ. Of course, the anti-Christ has to be European, because no American could be the anti-Christ. I don't refer to these people as "televangelists" I refer to them as "comedians" because everything they say is so innaccurate it is comical.LOL
 
Now I could've sworn I saw an evangelical program that definitively stated that the Antichrist would be a snyde businessman who tried to take over the world through an intricate virtual reality program.
 
Seriously, what people don't understand about that whole "no one knows the day and the hour" thing is beyond me.
 
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

As a Saint of the Orthodox Church sayed, the scope of the life (of a Christian) is the achieving of the Holy Spirit.

for that, we have to leave in continuously contemplation.

Any second we are ocupied with something else is a lost for us, a wasted time and an abrutization of our mind.

Because everything we do is changing us. If we live like animals, we become animals, if we dedicated our whole life to God, we get closer to Him each second.
 
Well said! Of course we can never allow that contemplation to distract from our duties to our fellow man.
 
 
Originally posted by boomajoom

That's all it takes to be a Christian. The debate then really should rest on what does it take to be a good Christian? Yet to talk about this kind of treads on dangerous ground (who are we to say who is a good and bad Christian?)...
 
The most insightful thing said thus far. The question, as it was stated, is inadequate. The question as it should be is dangerous, for we may be tempted to unjustly judge. I only wish I we could come to agreement on a couple of the other theological (intercession vs. mediation, for instance) and eschatological points you made.
 
Originally posted by boomajoom

Why not? The Law prohibits murder, but people are always killing each other in battle throughout the Bible. As far as a wealthy man...there is nothing wrong with being blessed by God, but there is something wrong with extortion. It is possible to gain wealth through honest means, and these people aren't punished. Those who extort and don't repent are. I think a lot of people quote the verse where Jesus says that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass into the gates of heaven as proof that God hates rich people. But in Jerusalem, there was the Needle Gate, which was smaller than the others and was open during the night when the main gate was closed. Camels that passed through here had to unload everything that they were carrying in order to pass through. As such, so must a rich man unload all of his wealth in order to pass into heaven.
 
Once again: well said! And that shedding of wealth could be a visible or a spiritual one. We are called to be stewards of our possessions, for they are never truly ours. Wonderfully stated.
 
Originally posted by boomajoom

BUT...it does little good to preach salvation to a group of people who are already saved. The Bible says that that's like crucifying Christ all over again, and is definitely unkool with God.    
 
This probably struck the greatest emotional chord with me. The path to Christian reunion is not by actively trying to convert each other. The path is through mutual ecumenism. This statement struck me hard because even now there are many baptist, and several other protestant ministers wasting resources trying to convert Orthodox Christians throughout eastern Europe and the Middle East. As always throughout history, unfortunately, we Christians appear to be more bent on destroying those we view as "schismatics" than on preaching Christ's truth.
 
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

Bible is not our destination. God also is beyond logic.

An illiterate could be saved without reading the Bible. Reading it is not indispensable because not the ideas from Bible save a man but the direct revelation of Holy Spirit to a man. We have also to be awared about the fake phenomenons, devilish simulations.
 
I almost agree. While the Bible is not our destination it is part of the path. It is a result, indeed it is the "revelation of Holy Spirit to a man." Interpretation is also a gift of the Spirit, but we must never diminish the role of the Bible as a part of God's revelation.
 
And as for God being beyond logic, I agree completely. And, it is precisely for this reason that we must seek to accept his revelation, of which the Bible represents a large part.
 
 
Originally posted by Greek Hoplite

I think that many are Christians only in the name. Few people live as true Christians and i do not mean to be religious zealout, see around you the only thing that most people interest them are the materials goods 
 
Undoubtedly. And most unfortunately.
 
 
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

The problem with literal interpretation of the Bible is it leads to hypocrisy. If you believe in the whole Bible, you believe that you should be able to slaughter pagans, yet you should not use violence to solve your problems(Old Testament vs. New Testament). The Bible's problem is a contradictory book, what I am saying is, that a Christian should believe all or nothing in the Bible, because it is stupid to say that the phrases about homosexuality, fornication, etc. "are not meant to be taken literally", yet Jesus being both man and god "is meant to be taken literally". For most Christian groups, taking the Bible literally would be suicide because they must be mainstream. In other words, most liberal Christian groups see that the Bible goes against reason many times, so they must say that is "not literal" or they would fall out of the mainstream Christianity.
 
It is when I consider things like this that I am glad that I find that the theological basis for the Church's right to interpret Scripture holds up. The Holy Spirit, which leads the Church into "all truth," is the basis, the vehicle, the inspiration, and the life of the Church's authority.
 
 
Originally posted by BMC2113

- I think it is important that we discuss the main premise of Christianity, which is the crucifiction and the resurrection. The belief of Jesus' death on the cross for the sins of humanity and the resurrection to give believers eternal life is the foundation of the Christian faith. If one did not believe in the resurrection, one could not truly be a Christian.....as it was Jesus' sacrifice which gave us the chance for life everlasting.
 
High time someone said it. Wink
 
 
Conclusions: I'm sorry, but I am ridiculously busy, so I limited this to replies to previous posts. Enjoy discussing this topic. And please remember, if we are truly Christians, it is not for us to define our faith for others, but rather for our faith to define us to others. May God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bless you and keep you.
 
-Akolouthos
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Posts: 7392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 17:27
Much of the above I can agree with but others not...being a christain for me is found in the words of James the Apostle when he wrote and I paraphrase.......'let my actions prove my faith'.
 
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What does it take, to be a Christian?

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

That's the essence (which I can complicate a good deal, if you want.)
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