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Best Infantry of Renaissance

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Poll Question: Who were the best infantry soldiers in the Renaissance?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [11.88%]
8 [7.92%]
24 [23.76%]
41 [40.59%]
3 [2.97%]
9 [8.91%]
1 [0.99%]
3 [2.97%]
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TJK View Drop Down
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best Infantry of Renaissance
    Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 10:26

Do you have any specifics regarding the 1541 defeat?

I have not many info about this battle. Just some note in Marek Plewczyski book about landknechts (I think in this case he have based on D. Miller's book " The Landknechts".

After the death of hungarian king John Zapoyla in 1540, the new king became his underaged son  John Sigismund. This was accepted by Sultan Suleyman under condition the Hungary will pay the tribute to the Ottomans. The new king was however not accepted by Habsubrgs. Ferdinand have sent the army of 50,000 soldiers (including landknechts) commanded by Wilhelm Roggendorf. This army laid siege of Buda in the summer 1541.  Suleyman take personal command of the Ottomans relief. On 21st August near Buda the ottoman relief start battle with Roggendorf's army. The formation of janissaries with canons  in the Ottoman center was protected on the wings by cavalry and chain-tied camels. Attacks of landknechts in the center were broken by canons and  janissaries fire. Habsurgian army was completely defeated  and Roggendorf wounded in the battle  died 2 days after.

 

It's interesting to note that in 1532 Sulleyman backed off from Charles V's army of veteran landsknechts and other troops (and his akincis were wiped out by Austrian troops in the Vienna

Yes, I know famous "hungarian formation".. but it was not any major fight between janissaries and landknechts in open field.

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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 07:14
Originally posted by TJK

Do you have any specifics regarding the 1541 defeat?

I have not many info about this battle. Just some note in Marek Plewczyski book about landknechts (I think in this case he have based on D. Miller's book " The Landknechts".

After the death of hungarian king John Zapoyla in 1540, the new king became his underaged son  John Sigismund. This was accepted by Sultan Suleyman under condition the Hungary will pay the tribute to the Ottomans. The new king was however not accepted by Habsubrgs. Ferdinand have sent the army of 50,000 soldiers (including landknechts) commanded by Wilhelm Roggendorf. This army laid siege of Buda in the summer 1541.  Suleyman take personal command of the Ottomans relief. On 21st August near Buda the ottoman relief start battle with Roggendorf's army. The formation of janissaries with canons  in the Ottoman center was protected on the wings by cavalry and chain-tied camels. Attacks of landknechts in the center were broken by canons and  janissaries fire. Habsurgian army was completely defeated  and Roggendorf wounded in the battle  died 2 days after.

 

Interesting--I'll have to research that one.

 

It's interesting to note that in 1532 Sulleyman backed off from Charles V's army of veteran landsknechts and other troops (and his akincis were wiped out by Austrian troops in the Vienna

Yes, I know famous "hungarian formation".. but it was not any major fight between janissaries and landknechts in open field.

 

 

It was not a "major fight" because Sulleyman decided not to engage in the first place. 

But, as has already been noted, landsknechts had already defeated janissaries at Vienna, etc.

In addition, there were actually quite a few landsknechts at Lepanto in 1571, which was of course a crushing defeat for the Ottomans--janissaries included.



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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TJK View Drop Down
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 10:20

But, as has already been noted, landsknechts had already defeated janissaries at Vienna, etc.

As well as janissaries defeated landknechts at Buda..

In addition, there were actually quite a few landsknechts at Lepanto in 1571, which was of course a crushing defeat for the Ottomans--janissaries included.

Hmm.. I think they were also at Perveza 1538..

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  Quote Polish-UkrainianCanadian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 13:28

Dit houdt enige helemaal niet steek! Ik ben niet helemaal zeker of de Duitsers of de Engelsen het beste zijn.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 14:29

The YeniCheri (Janissary) get my vote.

Two Janissary groups are as follows:

The Ich oglans were boys sent  to the Sultan's palace schools. These intelligent individuals were, generally, destined for high office.

The Acemi Oglans were a militaristic group whose training consisted of mental exams, obedience, Islam, Lanquage, horse riding, javelin throwing, archery, wrestling, weight lifting, etc. Emphasis was put on honesty, loyalty, good manners, and self control. Acemi's training led them to experience work in the kitchen, gardening, woodcutters, armourers, gunners, etc. Traing would last six years and would be promoted when jobs were available as needed.

Preparations in peace led to a fighting machine that maintained discipline. Well ordered camps and paved roads kept the machine well oiled. In war the disciplined Janissary, trained in a multitude of weapons, was kept as a last line of defense. The same discipline was expected while on the attack.



Edited by Seko
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 20:15
Originally posted by TJK

[QUOTE]

In addition, there were actually quite a few landsknechts at Lepanto in 1571, which was of course a crushing defeat for the Ottomans--janissaries included.

Hmm.. I think they were also at Perveza 1538..

I'm not certain as to whether or not landsknecht troops were present at Prevesa, but it doesn't really matter, since Prevesa wasn't much of a "battle" anyway--out of the entire Christian fleet, only a small number of Venetian vessels were lost, which can hardly be compared to the casualties suffered by the Turks at Lepanto.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 20:17
Originally posted by Polish-UkrainianCanadian

Dit houdt enige helemaal niet steek! Ik ben niet helemaal zeker of de Duitsers of de Engelsen het beste zijn.

 

Care to translate?

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 23:04
The Yenieri, definitely.
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 01:09

I chose the Ottoman Janissaries.  They can be considered to be the first genuine professional corps of infantry in Europe or Asia.  Taken as children from their homes in the Balkans as part of the devshirme policy, the Janissaries became fiercely loyal to the Sultan through strict observance of the tenants of Islam and payment directly from the imperial treasury.  The effectiveness of the Janissaries in battle is well illustrated in the battles of Varna in 1444 and Mohacs in 1526, in my opinion.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 20:00

the 'Spanish' tercios without a doubt.

Strong and steadfast in defense; ferocious and pitiless in attack, the Spanish/Italian/German/Walloon infantry of the Spanish Habsburg monarchy were more than a match for all European infantry up til the 1630s, and were far more numerous than the Ottoman Janissaries.  The military logic of overwhelming force would certainly give the Spanish infantry the advantage.

Too bad about the mutinies....  

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 09:09
The Spanish tercios, looking at how they so cleverly provided the first effective alternative to the pike armies is an impressive feat.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 10:42

I vote for the spanish tercios, because the lack of firearms in the swiss pikemen.

The janissaries were great infantry but mostly in defensive purposes (Varna, Nicopolis, Mohcs etc.). They were less efficient during attacks.

What about the hussite infantry with their war wagons? I think they also deserve to mention.

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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 08:56
Considering ashigaru being regular low morale battle meat, I still chose the samurai, being excessive in melee skills and profficient with the bow. With the installing of the gun warfare regular armies turned into quite organized modern combatants with enough tactical discipline.
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 12:49

Were the samurais or the tercios as disciplined as janissaries?

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 07:26
Originally posted by Paul

Ambiguous term 'best'

The best infantry were the Levellers. They were excellent quality soldiers though far from the finest of the period. But they fought for the finest cause of the era (possible in world history upto that point of time). And they fought freely and on conviction.

Newcastles Whitecoats who fought to the last man at Marston Moor, the Landsnechts & Spanish when the going got tough cut and ran.

Though really the finest troops of the whole renaissance were the New Model Army. The first fully professional army since Roman times and the basis for every modern army in the world today.

The period for the poll was restricted to the XV-XVI centuries and I assume means roughly from the fall of Constantinople to, say, the accession of Heni IV. Any conceivable English contenders are really either pre-period (the longbowmen of the 100 years war) or post-period (the various ones you mention here).

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 15:39
Originally posted by Paul

Though really the finest troops of the whole renaissance were the New Model Army. The first fully professional army since Roman times and the basis for every modern army in the world today.

thats the funniest part...

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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 15:43
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Were the samurais or the tercios as disciplined as janissaries?

Yep (at least for the samurai) they were quite disciplined since they were young. Another similarity is their prior and only goal was war, economical status was a burden that the wife took care of.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2005 at 07:12

It occurs to me that back when I was in the Army, the artillerymen around used to claim that the English longbowmen were artillery, not infantry.

That kind of thinking would logically lead to users of firearms as artillery, not infantry.

When did 'infantry' come to be applied other than to soldiers who fought on foot, hand-to-hand?

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  Quote timurshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 11:48

 of course the janissaries..!!!  i want to tell how disciplined they ar, from a soldier's tongue in Chaldran War in 1514,24th of august:" when i looked in the field firstly, i saw  big stone soldiers in front of the Sultan. when they began to move, i realized they were human!"     they were not only disciplined, also brave and a perfect war machine... they had a big portion in ottoman's victories. all those makes the janissaries the best infantries of the europe!!!

 the janissaries

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  Quote Hector Victorious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 20:32
ottoman Most definitaly

Edited by Hector Victorious
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