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Topic ClosedNew Middle East Borders !

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Middle East Borders !
    Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 21:25
Hehe, "Islamic Sacred State", you can tell they spent a lot of time coming up with names.
Arrrgh!!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 21:27
I don't think this will solve many problems, even if it WAS a good map! Now, the Factions at war with each other, will have a national banner! and can form and actual nation to fight there adversaries. I think this would start more Conficits then it is trying to stop
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 22:02

Originally posted by Red Russian

I don't think this will solve many problems, even if it WAS a good map! Now, the Factions at war with each other, will have a national banner! and can form and actual nation to fight there adversaries. I think this would start more Conficits then it is trying to stop

 

If I imagine myself as an Armenian, I get very angry with this map even my country seems to be in the winners list.

 

That idiot cuts the only trade route of Armenia (I am talking about Iran) with his map. Look at Armenia in that map; they are in the middle of Kurdistan, Azerbaijan and Georgia. How nice Shocked

 

Originally posted by mamikon

why does Kurdistan have access to the black sea though...I dont get that (among, many other things on that map)

 

Yes, it is ridiculous LOL.

 

What about Turkey? That very same idiot, again according to his peaceful map, is assuming that Turks will be happy to accept new borders. He must be insane. Even I got angry with the map, I cannot imagine Turks. He takes half of the country and calls that it is done for the peace.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 00:35
I like it! Sadly, the Kurdish independence won't happen, the Turks have too big of a geo-strategic intrest in controling the sources of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers for the fresh water.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 01:39
Thats silly. You want to be unifing countries not breaking them apart.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 02:06
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Thats silly. You want to be unifing countries not breaking them apart.
 
well said.
 
Clap
 
 
most of the problems we have are the too many borders and baseless nationalism.
 
having more borders wont solve anything. that's why this idea is naive.
 
a less borders, with administrative divisions based on ethnicity can be understandable than a whole new countries .
 
----
 
to solve these problems is to have a Middle east ruling itself in a democratic way without any outside influence or biased influence.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 04:28
Anyway, there is no way to revert Pakistan to its "natural" state, except with a nuclear war.
 
And Pashtuns, would much perfer to live with Afghanistan? Please, I am a pashtun and the further away we are from that rock, the better.
 
No offence meant to Afghanis on this forum.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 04:47
From a "bystanders" view, I would think such a suggestion would be welcomed, but I guess it only proves what I wrote in another post not too long ago, that solving an old problem looking back, only breeds 3 new problems or more.
 
To revert the process, I'll ask all of you who have religious, national or emotional feelings regarding this issue:
 
How would YOU envision a new scenario instead of this one, that could satisfy most interests in the region?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 04:57
How about this, leave it. Truth be told most borders are artficial. The fact is that in the 80 or 100 years since the chopping up, people have come to accept them as borders, intermarry and mingle with foreigners etc, etc.
 
Only going to oppen up a hornets nest. And start a nuclear war.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 07:00
Originally posted by Northman

 
How would YOU envision a new scenario instead of this one, that could satisfy most interests in the region?
 
 
 
simple
 
get the western greed out of the region by at least be neutral to their baby (Israel) and stop trying to control the region because of its natural resources and strategic location
 
, leave the people chose their government in a democratic way and respect what the people chose.
 
to prevent ethnic and religious clashes an administrative divisions within the nations, only for the purpose of having minor rules that satisfy their people.
 
and off course less made up borders.
 
-------------
 
the UNITED states of America wont be as it is today if it was not UNITED, Europe wont be as strong as it is today if they did not have any sort of UNION (a European Union).
 
divided people more = weakness
 
unite people = strength.
 
--------
 
its obvious that the West don't want union, they want weakness in the middle east specially to the ones with different ideas and cultures. Israel is a European made up country , its strength means western strength.
 
the only way to keep up the region controllable is to keep it Weak. divided, self occupied with their differences, ignore their  likeness and common goals.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 11:18
Although I agree with most of what you say Azimuth, I dont see how it would make a solution to the kurdish problem, the Sunni/Shia conflict or  any other of the more local issues in the ME.
I agree because I think a two (or rather three) nation solution is the only way to a balanced peace with Israel.
 
But lets for a moment imagine, the west and Israel will do as you say.
Then, what do you think should or could be offered from the other side? - or do you think all evil will automatically evaporate in thin air if your scenario comes true?
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 11:43
yup all our major problems are because of the west, the remaining problems are minor ones.
 
as i said the Kurdish and the Shea Sunni things can be easily solved with administrative division within a few united nations.
 
------------
 
but lets be realistic, the WEST will never let the middle east alone and will never deal with the Israeli/Palestinian issue in neutral way, simply because Israel is a western production its creation.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 12:05
so amusing, Like azimuth said sensless nationalism.
 
What is important is that all ethnicities in any political regional entity MUST have EQUAL citizenship of that country. For the most part you cant tell a kurd from a turk anyway. I would however be in favour of a united kurdistan as an autonomous entity. It would stabsalize the region and provide relief to the sufferings of kurdish people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 17:02

Originally posted by azimuth

 
the UNITED states of America wont be as it is today if it was not UNITED, Europe wont be as strong as it is today if they did not have any sort of UNION (a European Union).
 
divided people more = weakness
 
unite people = strength.
 
 

you need to be able to effectively govern yourself before uniting into a common entity. the US and EU both had experience (as colonies and countries) in self governance which enabled them to take the next step and unite.


Edited by Murph - 28-Jul-2006 at 17:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 17:23
Originally posted by Cent

"Kerkuk was a dominantly Turkmen city and you americans changed it into a Kurdish city in accordance with your benefits."
 
Source?
Recent Kurdish immigrations to Kerkuk.
Newcomers are told not to know certain street names and even the names of neighborhoods in Kerkuk.
 
 
I AM REPEATING: Neither the U.S.A nor any other EUROPEAN COUNTRY have  right to be  militarily in our( we refers to All Muslims)territories. Neither in Iraq or Afghhanistan nor in Lebanon nor elsewhere belongs to Muslims..  The rest is a matter of imperialistic enthusiasm of America and Europe.
If God knew how much pain and other inhumane things you gave us( definitely He knows), he would never forgive you.
Does your Christian religion order to kill and give pain to other people?
I do not know it.
But I know that our Muslim religion orders to defend our countries and it is called Jihad. If you try to realize this stupid map,  you will come and face Jihad.
I would like to remind you that Jihad means to defend Islam and Muslim countries. In jihad , it is ordered by God that the treaters must be killed as well.
So , Kurds applauding imperialistic west becomes objects of this rules as they turninto  treators of Islam.
THIS CRUSADE  WILL FAIL TOO. YOU WİLL NOT ACHIEVE AND SUCCEED IN IT.
 
 


Edited by Tangriberdi - 28-Jul-2006 at 17:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 17:48
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by Cent

"Kerkuk was a dominantly Turkmen city and you americans changed it into a Kurdish city in accordance with your benefits."
 
Source?
Recent Kurdish immigrations to Kerkuk.
Newcomers are told not to know certain street names and even the names of neighborhoods in Kerkuk.
 
 
I AM REPEATING: Neither the U.S.A nor any other EUROPEAN COUNTRY have  right to be  militarily in our( we refers to All Muslims)territories. Neither in Iraq or Afghhanistan nor in Lebanon nor elsewhere belongs to Muslims..  The rest is a matter of imperialistic enthusiasm of America and Europe.
If God knew how much pain and other inhumane things you gave us( definitely He knows), he would never forgive you.
Does your Christian religion order to kill and give pain to other people?
I do not know it.
But I know that our Muslim religion orders to defend our countries and it is called Jihad. If you try to realize this stupid map,  you will come and face Jihad.
I would like to remind you that Jihad means to defend Islam and Muslim countries. In jihad , it is ordered by God that the treaters must be killed as well.
So , Kurds applauding imperialistic west becomes objects of this rules as they turninto  treators of Islam.
THIS CRUSADE  WILL FAIL TOO. YOU WİLL NOT ACHIEVE AND SUCCEED IN IT.
 
 
 
its a theoretical map which offers an interesting view on the Middle East, not an American plan for reorganization of the region.
 
but thanks for the heads up. now that we now our crusade against you will fail, we will immediately stop. our apologies.


Edited by Murph - 28-Jul-2006 at 17:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 18:19
WOW ME LIKE!! I like this Ralph Peters! :D

I notice all nationalists and patriots are mad. Now you feel how we feel.

Hahaha!The mad one is you Cent..

Our "bloody" words are not crazyness, we always say that we would shed our blood for our country.


Edited by Jagatai Khan - 28-Jul-2006 at 18:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 21:50
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

I AM REPEATING: Neither the U.S.A nor any other EUROPEAN COUNTRY have right to be militarily in our( we refers to All Muslims)territories. Neither in Iraq or Afghhanistan nor in Lebanon nor elsewhere belongs to Muslims..

That's funny. Perhaps you didn't notice, Turkey is a part of NATO too.

What about Turkish troops in Afghanistan?

And Iraq was invaded through south, remember?

As you can see, that "East vs. West" or "Islam vs. Christianity" classifications of yours make no sense at all.


    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 22:25
why not just use straight lines? it works well in the American midwest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 23:24

Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Concerning Turkey. This map is mistaken.  Take or find an  administrative Map of Turkey. And then  you can understand how mistaken it is in accordance with the information that I will give below.
 
In the map,  Kurdistan Borders reaches the  Black Sea via Artvin . It can never. Because ; as you will see if you are holding an administrative map of Turkey, Artvin has almost no Kurdish population. In the map Ardahan is shown within the borders of so called Kurdistan. Ardahan is a predominantly Turkish city. Just like Kars and Igdir. Erzurum has some Kurdish regions towards south. But the city center , northward and westward Erzurum is also a predominantly Turkish city. North of Agri is also has a Turkish population about 30%  Now come southward to the western side of the Van lake. Within the borders of the city Bitlis, the districts Adilcevaz, Ahlat and Tatvan are predominantly Turkish. Two of three of these districts, namely; Adilcevaz and Ahlat have Kurdish population under %20. In Tatvan Turks and Kurds are equal in number.
 
Now, that is the truth. How can your stupid bodies , even if they are professors or whatever,  dare to determine borders to Turkey. We draw it by blood.  If one day we decide that no longer we will be able to live with Kurds, side by side, then we will draw our own border again.
,Kurds in the north of Agri are newcomers.. So if we are separated one day. They will go back to where they come from.
Today Istanbul  Mersin and other big Turkish cities have been exposed to Kurdish immigration.. Can someone say that Mersin or Adana or Gaziantep( took later Kurdish immigration and changed in ethno demographical data.)are Kurdish. No it is impossible. We will not let this happen. Kerkuk was a dominantly Turkmen city and you americans changed it into a Kurdish city in accordance with your benefits.
But we will not let you be able to do this in Turkey. You must shed  your blood. if you try.
That is it.
Enough.
U.S.A is the bigest provocator and terrorist country in tyhe world.
History will write that so.

 
Mr. Tangriberdi, sending "back" people is not a very serious solution; from which point in history you start to look for a "forth", in order to have a "back"? By this very logic, you risk being send in central asia . . . "back".
The real solution, unfortunately for all the losers of history (kurds), is that the turkish state become a real democratic state, where the kurds has their place; that is their self-governing body, their language established, and their rights as members of a federal turkish state. The same with israelis: they can't for ever keep territory that is havily populated by palestinian arabs. They have to give it back the very second arabs show they really want peace and not just distruction . . .
But I wonder why the guy drawing this bizzare map has "created" a territory for the mecca and medina, "chopping" saudi arabia. May still be rational, but I fail to see the logic now . . .
 



Edited by Corlanx - 28-Jul-2006 at 23:48
We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly. - Bill Maher
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