Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Persians conquer Greece

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Persians conquer Greece
    Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 12:32
Persian Fire was a piece of "Bullocks".
Back to Top
annechka View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 04-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote annechka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 10:49

Hi Sparten.

Why is Holland's book bullocks?
 
any specific  examples?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 13:21
Theramopyale bit for example, he made it sound like a battle for democracy against tyranny, (which it was not), waged by out numbered supermen, which they were not either, sitting pretty on a pass like that.
Brave no doubt, supermen, certainly not.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 21:08

IMHO, more than "democracy" itself in the literal definition (majority rule, or mob rule), the greatest Greek contribution in stopping the Persian invation was the preservation of "Greek Freedom," ie. the indepedence of city states.

Regardless what the webster dictionary definition of the word is, what we today think of "democracy" probably does not involve the privillege of voting among of millions of others, and if upon the final tally you are in the minority, you get a chance to be put up against the wall and shot by the NKVD . . . yes women under Stalin got to vote before the French did.
 
Personal freedom depends on the plethra of choices.  If the only name on the ballot is Stalin or Xerxes, well, you are not going to be free even if your dog and cat can help you cast extra votes . . . and you life is not going to be a whole lot better or secure than the dog and cat.   Ancient Greeks seemed to understand that the ultimate guarantor of personal freedom is the opportunity to relocate to a different political entity if the home state becomes tyrannical (whether tyranny by one individual, by a group of oligarchs or by the mob itself).  That's why Greeks had an innate distaste for empires.  Even the all-conquring Macedonian Alexander respected  that wish.  If Greeks had been conqured by the Persian Empire, there would be no cultural affinity that Alexander felt for the "real" Greeks; Persian emperors probably would have appointed satraps and viceroys to rule Greek city states instead leaving them alone like Alexander did.  That probably would have had adverse consequences for the intellectual achievements Greeks later attained.
 
In terms of long term consequences for historical political institutions, eastern imperialism eventually did conqure west in the form of Roman Empire, to be shortly followed by an eastern mind control device similar to Persian Zoroastrianism called Christianity.  I do wonder though, what motivated Diocletian to cut the empire in two halves instead of trying to hold onto the whole thing like a Persian Emperor would have done.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 00:42
Please most of the Greek "intellectual achievements" were from either Ionia, which was already Persian, or the Greek colonies in Italy or elsewhere.
Back to Top
Giannis View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 05:00
Ionia was greek, before the persian conquest. Although, the persian gave great privilleges to the Ionian greek cities, regarding some other areas of their empire.

Edited by Giannis - 09-Aug-2006 at 05:01
Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 05:30
The Persian interest in Grecee was nil. Please this was an already highly over extended empire. They had the same problems against the Egyptians and in Central Asia (which Old Alex also left well alone). The former was too rich to be ignored so if one Persian army was defeated, they would send three more, while pride was a factor in the latter, Cyrus got himself popped there.
 
If Grecee (an net food importing country) had had anything serious to offer the Persians, then Xerxes, would not have left in the middle of the whole thing, and the Persians would have tried again after Platrea.
 
And as for Ionia, well come on, the Persians (wih the exception of Miletus),  tended to leave them well alone.
 
Back to Top
Giannis View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 08:14

The cause of the Greek-Persian war, was the help that was sended to the revollutionary Ionian states by Athens. A great empire like Persian, couldn't just forget that Athens helped the rembels, they had to annihiliate this threat. And it's not so easy at that period, to just send one army after an other. It wasn't also so easy to be a persian king, I believe that Xerxes abandoned his campaing for two reasons, first because of supplies, his fleet was destroyed in Salamina(battle) and in Chalkidiki(big storm) and second, because of his rivalries in his court, (his army was far enough and his campaing had small success). 



Edited by Giannis - 09-Aug-2006 at 08:15
Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 08:51
Small success? He had taken Athens and burnt it to the ground. And even after Platrea the Persians decided to withraw, were not forced to. Xerxes went away to surpress a rebellion IIRC. Grecee had little to offer the Persians.
Back to Top
Giannis View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 25-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 08:58
Persians, just burned buildings, Napoleon also conquered a burned town, but he didn't gained anything. Greece as riches, didn't have to offer anything, as Lebanon to Israel, Persians wanted to crash the allies of the rebel cities and they failed in doing so.
Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
Back to Top
alexISS View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 147
  Quote alexISS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 09:06
Originally posted by Sparten

Please most of the Greek "intellectual achievements" were from either Ionia, which was already Persian, or the Greek colonies in Italy or elsewhere.


Do you actually believe that to be true?!?
Aischylus ,Socrates, Plato, Solon, Sofokles, Pericles, Demosthenes, Thoukidides, Aristophanes, Aristeides, Euripides are just a few names that come to mind, which ones were not from mainland Greece?

And in what way did the Persian ruling directly affect the forming of the "Ionian school" or it's intellectual achievements? Pythagoras was not a Persian, was he?
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
Back to Top
alexISS View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 147
  Quote alexISS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 09:11
Originally posted by Sparten

Small success? He had taken Athens and burnt it to the ground. And even after Platrea the Persians decided to withraw, were not forced to. Xerxes went away to surpress a rebellion IIRC. Grecee had little to offer the Persians.


Read "Perses", by Aischylus. You'll find it surprisingly unbiased and you'll get an idea of what a devastating defeat the Persians suffered in Greece, as well as what it's impact was in Persia.


Edited by alexISS - 09-Aug-2006 at 09:12
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 12:15
I have read it, and no its hardly unbiased. The whole Greek affair was small change for the Persians.
As for the people from Ionia (and no I am not claiming that they were Persian, just that a Persian conquest would not have had an effect on Greek Civilization and achievements that is often claimed), well you have the whole Miletus school, Thales, Anaximander, Anaxmenes, then Pythagoras, who floroshed in Samos, and at Croton.
Back to Top
alexISS View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 147
  Quote alexISS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 17:49
Originally posted by Sparten

I have read it, and no its hardly unbiased. The whole Greek affair was small change for the Persians.

This is really the first time I heard or read anything like this. Only considering that most of Persia's "active" male population was lost in the wars is enough to understand the impact of the defeat in Persia

Originally posted by Sparten


I am not claiming that they were Persian, just that a Persian conquest would not have had an effect on Greek Civilization and achievements that is often claimed

The Ionians were in an autonomous state that allowed them to "flourish", but that would not be the case with the rest of Greece had Persia won the war

Originally posted by Sparten


you have the whole Miletus school, Thales, Anaximander, Anaxmenes, then Pythagoras, who floroshed in Samos, and at Croton.

An important but small part of the Classical Greece achievements list
Compare this to a previous post of yours, do you still consider it valid?
Originally posted by Sparten


Please most of the Greek "intellectual achievements" were from either Ionia, which was already Persian, or the Greek colonies in Italy or elsewhere


"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 00:18
Hey Its not my opinion, its Bertrad Russels as well. If you ever get down to reading a History of Wesetrn Philiosphy.
Back to Top
alexISS View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 147
  Quote alexISS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 02:35
Originally posted by Sparten

Hey Its not my opinion, its Bertrad Russels as well. If you ever get down to reading a History of Wesetrn Philiosphy


Hey great argument, you really proved me wrong Confused
Guess I'm done discussing this with you



Edited by alexISS - 10-Aug-2006 at 02:35
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.