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Persians conquer Greece

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  Quote Irish Nation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Persians conquer Greece
    Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 07:22
If the Greeks had not defended against the Eastern Despots of Persia and they had got into Europe. Do you think it would have changed History Much. It may have but a stop to the Rise of Rome if they Reached Italy? Would there be any changes? Not in these days but in the ancient World
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 07:38
First of all and most important for me, is that you could kiss Democracy, goodbuy
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  Quote Irish Nation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 07:46
Yes i thought of that as well. Many things in the ancient times could change things today. That being one of the most Important as you say friend.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 08:33
Originally posted by Giannis

First of all and most important for me, is that you could kiss Democracy, goodbuy
How? Democracy did not last much longer did it, after the whole Pelopennese business?
 
And "despots" of Persia? Pleae Sparta at its maximum had 250,000 slaves and 25,000 citizens. The Persians were a highly tolerant people.
 
And the best Greek ideas came not from mainland Greece, but from Ionia (and the Italian city states), the former were very mcuh Persian.
 
**Goes off muttering**
 
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 09:47

Athenian democracy was twice briefly interrupted by oligarchic revolution towards the end of the Peloponisian war . It was modified somewhat after it was restored under Eucleides,  the most detailed accounts are of this fourth-century modification rather than the Periclean system. It was suppressed by King Alexander. in 322 BC.  The Athenian institutions were later revived.

Philosophy and politics evolved in Athens, surely the other City-States contributed in many fields, but the ''jewel'' city of the ancient greek world was Athens.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 16:46
Well, British parliamentary democracy has its roots not in Hellens but Anglo Saxon tradition and British Parliamentary democracy is the model for most modern democracies.
 
 
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 16:51
I didn't know that Anglo-Saxons voted and get voted, that's interesting. How old is this tradition and what kind of tradition is it?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 16:56
It's a gathering of chieftains, like parliament of MPs to dicuss political issues.  The tradition is as old as the aAnglo Saxons I guess.
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 17:26
But, that's common to many civilizations, the king with his consuls, the emperor with his lords etc, and it's not the true meaning of democracy.
 
The heart of democracy is the right to elect and to get elected. Did the chieftains get elected? Was is possible to be overthrone? I don't see many similarities.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 06:44
Giannis please.......... this myth that "Greeks" invented what we today call democracy is the biggest myth to ever circulate.
 
 

Democracy, in the true sense of the word, as it is practiced today was also practiced by the Phoenicians many years before it was adopted by Athens. Not all ancient City States were democracies! Sparta was not a democracy.

What exactly do we mean by "democracy" and how does it relate to the type of "democracy" practiced in Athens during its heydays?

According to Webster, democracy is "majority rule; the principle of equality of rights, opportunity, and treatment, or the practice of this principle; the common people, esp. as the wielders of political power".

Athens, on the other hand, was ruled by a very small minority of wealthy white men. These men were not only rulers, they were also slave owners. Slaves, who comprised about sixty-percent of the Athenian population, were neither Athenian citizens nor did they have any political rights. In fact these people were bought and sold in the market like commodities. Further, women, who made up about half of the ancient Athenian population, did not have any rights at all, not even to call themselves human.

So if we compare Webster's definition of democracy to that practiced in ancient Athens we find that they don't compare at all!

In reality the type of so-called democracy practiced by the ancient Athenians was worse than our 19th century Fascism and Nazism, the type of rule popular with white racist regimes. The ancients may have called it democracy but lets not confuse it with our modern democracy which is more like the original democracy practiced by the Phoenicians.

 
 
The ordinary people had more rights in the Persian Empire which was the beacon of civillisation in the region untill places like Persepolis were razed by Alexander.
 
Giannis
But, that's common to many civilizations, the king with his consuls, the emperor with his lords etc, and it's not the true meaning of democracy.
 
The heart of democracy is the right to elect and to get elected. Did the chieftains get elected? Was is possible to be overthrone?
 
The first Democraces in the way its understood by us today was this system. It was much fairer, yes Chieftans were elected and could overthrow. The rulers interacted with the people and lived among them.
 
The English Democracy has its roots in the Saxon system as Zagros rightly pointed out.
 
The Magna Carta was the first step forward, later Cromwell putting the King of trial and organising a popular elected vote for a few years after is the real root of today's democracy.
 
 
 
If Persians had succeeded, everything as we know it would have changed. The Persians would have swept into the Mediterrannean and Europe and became one of the largest, most advanced (they already were one of the most advanced but even more advanced!) and remembered in Europe as the fouders of European civillisation.
 
The West would have developed faster as the Persians would have developed it. There may have been no Rome, no Alexander......
 
Everything would have been different today.


Edited by Bulldog - 27-Jul-2006 at 06:47
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 08:06
Originally posted by Bulldog

Giannis please.......... this myth that "Greeks" invented what we today call democracy is the biggest myth to ever circulate.
 
 
 
Well, if you insist. But, why it's world known with it's greek name?
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

Democracy, in the true sense of the word, as it is practiced today was also practiced by the Phoenicians many years before it was adopted by Athens. Not all ancient City States were democracies! Sparta was not a democracy.
 
 
Never heard of Phoenician democracy, but I agree on Sparta. At ancient times Greece wasn't a state, it was a group of self-governed city-states, it's one of them choosed the political system that suited them better.

 

Originally posted by Bulldog

Athens, on the other hand, was ruled by a very small minority of wealthy white men. These men were not only rulers, they were also slave owners. Slaves, who comprised about sixty-percent of the Athenian population, were neither Athenian citizens nor did they have any political rights. In fact these people were bought and sold in the market like commodities. Further, women, who made up about half of the ancient Athenian population, did not have any rights at all, not even to call themselves human.
 
I agree, with almost everything here. Just a small correction, Athens was rulled by citizens of Athens, not a minority. Something, that pretty much is valid for nowdays. You could also purchase slaves in England too, untill 18th century, I think and as for women votes, I think that the first state that give them this right was Turkey in 1936.
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

So if we compare Webster's definition of democracy to that practiced in ancient Athens we find that they don't compare at all!
 
Can you compare the communism that Marx dreamed, with the political system that USSR used to have? Democracy evolved and became, one of the finest political systems. But, it's roots was in Athens.
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
In reality the type of so-called democracy practiced by the ancient Athenians was worse than our 19th century Fascism and Nazism, the type of rule popular with white racist regimes. The ancients may have called it democracy but lets not confuse it with our modern democracy which is more like the original democracy practiced by the Phoenicians.
 
You can't compare Athenian democracy with present democracy, that's true. But, you can't also compare it with Fascism or Nazism or racial politics. The heart of democracy was from equal citizens to elect and to be elected. Pretty interesting your site, but, try these also:
 
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

The first Democraces in the way its understood by us today was this system. It was much fairer, yes Chieftans were elected and could overthrow. The rulers interacted with the people and lived among them.
 
The English Democracy has its roots in the Saxon system as Zagros rightly pointed out.
 
The Magna Carta was the first step forward, later Cromwell putting the King of trial and organising a popular elected vote for a few years after is the real root of today's democracy.
 
I didn't know that chieftains were elected, and i think that they usually murdered or killed or retired than overthrown and in democracy rulers don't ''interact'' with people, they are the people.
 
Surely, Cromwell contibuted as many people did to change democracy to a better system, but none of them made something new, they change an old idea, so it can work better in their time.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
If Persians had succeeded, everything as we know it would have changed. The Persians would have swept into the Mediterrannean and Europe and became one of the largest, most advanced (they already were one of the most advanced but even more advanced!) and remembered in Europe as the fouders of European civillisation.
 
The West would have developed faster as the Persians would have developed it. There may have been no Rome, no Alexander......
 
Everything would have been different today.
 
 
Maybe so, who knows maybe it would be better with Persians. But, one thing is for sure we wouldn't have democracy, we would have a king. And I don't like kings, especially bad kings.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 10:42
Well, if you insist. But, why it's world known with it's greek name?
 
europeans has always accepted the history written by theirselves since past, that's why.


Edited by Maziar - 27-Jul-2006 at 10:43
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 12:53
That's so pessimistic! Why do you feel like this? Did west stole eastern history?
 
Please, give me the eastern history.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 23:48
Okay, while we are at,
The Sumerian City Staes were democratic,
The Indian Sub Continent has many cities which were democratic, and this thousands of years before the Greeks showed up.
 
And the Greeks did not stay democratic for long, the Hellenic age was hardly a poster boy for democracy.
 
And, only the English speaking world call it democracy, other countries call it by other names, here for example its called , "Jumhooriet".
 
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 16:56
Agre withsparten, europeans call this system Democracy, becouse this is a european word. In persian we say "mardom salari"
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 22:57
yes, the west wants everyone to believe that it was the greeks who invented democracy. that is a plain lie.

forms of democracy existed in other parts of the world too.

also, democracy was also used by pirates. so to say that democracy would not exist today without greeks is a ludicrous.

westerners are very biased when it comes to history that isnt their own.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 05:51
Why do people have this misconception about the Persians being "Despots"? Look no further that Cyrus the Greats' seal- the basis for human rights that applied to pretty much everyone in the empire.
 
he Sumerian City Staes were democratic,
 
I am sorry, but that is a hige mistake. The Sumerian city states were mainly Oligarcies or under religious rule. Granted, the leader did have a council who questioned his actions, but the rulers were pretty much dictators. The Sumerian city states' political culture is so far removed an alien from our own that the very concept of democracy could not have even been imagined- are you really claiming that Monarchs like Gudea of Lagash were elected by popular vote?
 
I think and as for women votes, I think that the first state that give them this right was Turkey in 1936.
 
Actually it was Wyoming in 1869
 
 
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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 11:56
list of nations who gave womens suffrage in order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women%27s_suffrage
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 14:37
Originally posted by Earl Aster

Why do people have this misconception about the Persians being "Despots"? Look no further that Cyrus the Greats' seal- the basis for human rights that applied to pretty much everyone in the empire.
 
he Sumerian City Staes were democratic,
 
I am sorry, but that is a hige mistake. The Sumerian city states were mainly Oligarcies or under religious rule. Granted, the leader did have a council who questioned his actions, but the rulers were pretty much dictators. The Sumerian city states' political culture is so far removed an alien from our own that the very concept of democracy could not have even been imagined- are you really claiming that Monarchs like Gudea of Lagash were elected by popular vote?
 
I think and as for women votes, I think that the first state that give them this right was Turkey in 1936.
 
Actually it was Wyoming in 1869
 
 
The Sumerian leaders were reponsible to someone. Thats a big difference between them and the others. Even today heads of government have a lot of power; executive powers, which are pretty much dictatorial, however they are responsible to others.
 
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  Quote annechka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 10:46
There is an excellent book that addresses this question.
 
Persian Fire: The First World Empire and the Battle for the West.  by Tom Holland.   It has some interesting ideas about the what ifs. Another aspect addressed is how history influences modern day.
 
Another book:  The History of the Persian Empire by Olmstead focuses on the this history from the Persian perspective.  Xerxes was a great Kin.


Edited by annechka - 07-Aug-2006 at 10:47
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