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Do christian turks exists
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do christian turks exists
    Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:36

The Ottoman empire was a feudal agricultural empire which was based on war economy

halfly true, pls what type of empire can survive 600 year with war economy. I think you are to much effected with our tale-history.
 
whose motive was based religion, which made her citizens awfully religious,
 
sorry? do you have proofs or just again we are talking about your ideas? Ottomans gave christians more freedom than Turkey. Ottomans made their politics with mind not with religion. They allied christians against muslims or otherwise.
 
whose literacy rate was 1%
 
so tell me, when did literacy rate began to rise?
 
Turkey is worse than the West, guys, not the middle east nor the Ottomans.
 
Hmm? about what issue? We have same gdp with iran or If I am not wrong saudi arabia.
 
 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:24
Mortaza;
 
The Ottoman empire was a feudal agricultural empire which was based on war economy, and whose motive was based religion, which made her citizens awfully religious, whose literacy rate was 1%. What you wrote about the Ottomans also proves my statement.
 
Turkey is worse than the West, guys, not the middle east nor the Ottomans.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:18
I am curious, If they are ethnically turks or only asimilated turks.
 
But well, I think I will never learn it.
 
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:08
Ok i will follow our actual topic
 
Originally posted by erkut

And dont forget Karamani 's guys. They were the Christian Turks of  Anatolia untill 1920s. All of them living in Greece now.
 
Yeap any  comments about Karamanis?
 
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:55
Guyz looks like you are heavily deviating from the original question maybe you should open a new thread in current events
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:40
Well uneducated fanatic religious peoples throw bombs to cumhuriyet newspaper,
 
Bombs were taken by army. It looks life, after cumhuriyet hear it, they stoped their propoganda.
 they kill danıştay members
 
who? someone drink alchol? is this religious one? please.
 
 
But did you ever heard a cumuhuriyet reader bombed zaman newspaper or a mosq, did you ever heard they killed an sheyh or a fanatik muslim?
 
My friend, cumhuriyet is supporting a coup, they are trying to incite army. So It is absolutely not so innocent newspaper. Do you aware of thread?
 
Not just richness actualy because money also changes social structure.
 
Well so? Of course It changes social structure.
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:39
You seem to have this idea that us in the UK or other Western European countries still have a late Victorian mind-set. This prejeduce mentallity is now redundant and frowned upon. Here alot of people would like to live in a small town or village, they like to protect their heritage, local architecture and customs especially in Itally.
 
People in big cities are not "superior" to those in villages and towns. Infact poverty levels and the lives of the less privaleged are actually worse in big cities. In town, small cities and villages the families are large and their unit is strong, they work together and help each other, they don't go hungry and have land.
 
Erkut
That kind of things was happening at the age of Batuta bro. Time changed peopels
 
Really? well last time I went to Turkey it was actually similar to Ibn Battuta's descriptions.
 
This country ... is one of the finest in the world; in it God has brought together the good things dispersed throughout other lands. Its people are the most comely (handsome) of men, the cleanest in their dress, the most delicious in their food, and the kindliest folk in creation. Wherever we stopped in this land, whether at a hospice or a private house, our neighbors both men and women (these do not veil themselves) came to ask after our needs. When we left them they bade us farewell as though they were our relatives and our own folk, and you would see the women weeping out of grief at our departure." [Gibb, p. 415 - 416]
 
We went to some villages and small towns, the locals always asked us to drink their tea, they bought us so much food even gave us shelter. We didn't know them for long but it felt as if we knew them for ages. Anything they had they let us use, they treated us as an equal, when we left the woman poured water over our car and were upset.
 
Battuta noted that Turkish men and woman were equal in Turkish society, even alot of woman don't veil and men don't bother them if they do or don't.
 
"...A remarkable thing which I saw in this country was the respect shown to women by the Turks, for they hold a more dignified position than the men. ... I saw also the wives of the merchants and common [men]. [Their faces are] visible for the Turkish women do not veil themselves. Sometimes a woman will be accompanied by her husband and anyone seeing him would take him for one of her servants."
 
 
 
Diyanet is a continuation of Seyh-ul-Islam under a different name, their essential as a regulatory body and not to allow Wahabbi money to infiltrate every mosque in the country.


Edited by Bulldog - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:57
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erkut View Drop Down
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:34
Originally posted by Mortaza

why not? I dislike diyanet much. They should built an organization for every people(sunni, alevi, christian), or they should not built any organization. why do you think, I prefer to take my religious service with non-muslims money?
 
İ agree with you again.Smile
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

why? Infact, I dont see much difference between an uneducated fanatic religious people, or an educated fanatic cumhuriyet reader. Both are close minded.
 
Well uneducated fanatic religious peoples throw bombs to cumhuriyet newspaper, they kill danıştay members, they kill nonmuslims(Santoro for ex.) or Alevis(Dont you remember howmany Alevi they killed in Sivas). But did you ever heard a cumuhuriyet reader bombed zaman newspaper or a mosq, did you ever heard they killed an sheyh or a fanatik muslim?
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Economy Politic says agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities
That is why I asked question. are we talking about richness or not. It is a known fact cities are more rich than villages.

 
Not just richness actualy because money also changes social structure.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:22

Finally you agree with me :)

why not? I dislike diyanet much. They should built an organization for every people(sunni, alevi, christian), or they should not built any organization. why do you think, I prefer to take my religious service with non-muslims money?
 
But atleast educated ones are better
 
why? Infact, I dont see much difference between an uneducated fanatic religious people, or an educated fanatic cumhuriyet reader. Both are close minded.

Economy Politic says agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities

That is why I asked question. are we talking about richness or not. It is a known fact cities are more rich than villages.

 
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:15

Originally posted by Mortaza

I agree, but than who will state control islam? and who will teach(be sure there would be valuenters islam to people)?

Finally you agree with me Smile

Originally posted by Mortaza

They use islam for their aims.

And İ agree with you tooSmile

Originally posted by Mortaza

Hidden face , please to stop belittling poor villagers. It is becoming boring. when did fanatism related with education?(Look at cumhuriyet newspaper, so much educated so much fanatic.)

But atleast educated ones are betterGeek

Originally posted by Bulldog

Go to a village in Turkey, they'll give you all they have to look after and feed you and feel offended if you try to offer money as thanks, all they want is for you to be pleased.
 

That kind of things was happening at the age of Batuta bro. Time changed peopels.Wink

Originally posted by Mortaza

And agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities. Science says this.
 
By the way, do you have a link about this? or is this science only your idea. (are we talking about richness or tolerance?)
 
 
education is a good thing, If aim of education is good.

Economy Politic says agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socitiesErmm



Edited by erkut - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:20
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:57
And agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities. Science says this. 
 
By the way, do you have a link about this? or is this science only your idea. (are we talking about richness or tolerance?)
 
 
education is a good thing, If aim of education is good.
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:00
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:55
Mortaza that's what I said. If you say that there's no jihadism in Turkey, then thanks to our Religious Affairs Ministry, which has always been saying that tolerance and human rights are the basis of Islam.
 
Sufism does not come with Diyanet. Even people who dont follow diyanet(and be sure, diyanet is not so much respected by religious people.) are not jihadists.
 
Therefore there's a wonderful -Muslim and at the same time democratic and humanist- community in Turkey.
 
you are talking about which people? AKP?
 
At the Ottoman ages, We did Jihad against Europe for almost 600 years saying "Kuffara kiyamet. (doomsday for Infidels!") Thanks to our Seyh-ul Islams, who were saying that "infidel west" must be destroyed.
 
Pls you should know it better. Every enemy of ottomans were infidels, not only west but east too.(Shia.) Ottomans claimed jihad even against fellow muslims. 
 
By the way, I should also add, Infact that ottomans were much more tolerant to christians than secular humanist turks.
 
Today, we realised that any type of "holy war" is terrible and must go to hell.! 
 
all of our wars were holy, most probably all of our wars would be holy too.
 
can you tell me an unholy war we fought? this is called as brainwashing(Not only turkey do, but every countries do it.)  No matter what we do, we are making a holy war.
 
 Republic period of Anatolia is the most peaceful period compared to the whole history.
 
do you want to tell me ottomans fought so much war because of their religious society? Pls. do you believe this bullsh*t?
 
And then take a look at the misery of those "jihadist" middle eastern people and compare it with our situation.
 
Look at iran, do you see a lot jihadist? but they supported evil armenians against shia azeris. So, dont close your eyes and minds to others. It is still money and politics people follow. It is not important how much religious they are.
 
I should also add, which part of Turkey are you talking about? some part are better and some part are worse than arabic countries.
 
Religious Affairs Ministry did a great job since secular Turkey republic.
 
That is true. If we have same type of education ministry, we would be realy a peaciful country.
 
 
 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:52
I must calm down, and ignore this.

Edited by The Hidden Face - 06-Nov-2007 at 11:33
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:48

Why, are you ashamed of your countries villagers?

What's a "Jihadi", as far as I know its a term used by Islamophobe's on anti-muslim hate sites.
 
Ottomans were hardly as you describe, they funded Protestantism and had the support of Netherlands, France and Protestant states.
 
And agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities. Science says this.
 
There is no "inferior" or "superior" society, science changes daily and really this isn't a scientific equation. 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:40
Mortaza that's what I said. If you say that there's no jihadism in Turkey, then thanks to our Religious Affairs Ministry, which has always been saying that tolerance and human rights are the basis of Islam. Therefore there's a wonderful -Muslim and at the same time democratic and humanist- community in Turkey. At the Ottoman ages, We did Jihad against Europe for almost 600 years saying "Kuffara kiyamet. (doomsday for Infidels!") Thanks to our Seyh-ul Islams, who were saying that "infidel west" must be destroyed.
 
Today, we realised that any type of "holy war" is terrible and must go to hell.! Republic period of Anatolia is the most peaceful period compared to the whole history. And then take a look at the misery of those "jihadist" middle eastern people and compare it with our situation.
 
 
Religious Affairs Ministry did a great job since secular Turkey republic.
 
And agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities. Science says this. 
 
And guys, let's ignore this Bulldog's post, please.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:22
'Kyl milletin efendisidir'  (Villagers are the gentlemen of this nation)
 
Ghazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha AtaTurk
 
Stop belittling villagers, you can sit and whine about them all you want but I find them more warm-hearted, hospitable and able to deal, live and cope with life far better than some bigotted city dwellers who have become lost, materialistic and disatisfied with life.
 
Go to a village in Turkey, they'll give you all they have to look after and feed you and feel offended if you try to offer money as thanks, all they want is for you to be pleased.
 
This is what Ibn Battuta wrote about Turks.
 
This country ... is one of the finest in the world; in it God has brought together the good things dispersed throughout other lands. Its people are the most comely (handsome) of men, the cleanest in their dress, the most delicious in their food, and the kindliest folk in creation. Wherever we stopped in this land, whether at a hospice or a private house, our neighbors both men and women (these do not veil themselves) came to ask after our needs. When we left them they bade us farewell as though they were our relatives and our own folk, and you would see the women weeping out of grief at our departure." [Gibb, p. 415 - 416]
 
"We stayed here at the college mosque of the town... Now in all the lands inhabited by the Turkmens in Anatolia, in every district, town and village, there are to be found members of the organization known as the ... Young Brotherhood. Nowhere in the world will you find men so eager to welcome strangers, so prompt to serve food and to satisfy the wants of others... The members of this community work during the day to gain their livelihood, and bring ... what they have earned in the late afternoon. With this they buy fruit, food, and the other things which the hospice requires for their use. If a traveler comes to town that day they lodge him.... and he stays with them until he goes away. If there are no travelers they themselves assemble to partake of the food, and having eaten it they sing and dance. On the morrow they return to their occupations and bring their earnings to their leader in the late afternoon."
 
 
Go to Turkish villages and towns and this is how you'll be treated even in small cities but in the big cities its not as common.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 29-Mar-2007 at 14:23
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 13:57
Also where the hell that cihadist you talk? I am not aware of them.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 13:55
Otherwise how could you explain ''Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı''(Religious Affairs Ministry). The state pays Sunni imams salaries with our taxes, but same state does not doing anything for Alevis, Jews and Christians. İs that secularism?
 
I agree, but than who will state control islam? and who will teach(be sure there would be valuenters islam to people)?
 
Turkey is nationalist, not secularist or other thing. They use islam for their aims.
 
Hidden face , please to stop belittling poor villagers. It is becoming boring. when did fanatism related with education?(Look at cumhuriyet newspaper, so much educated so much fanatic.)
 
I should also add, It is still nationalism who is against others.(No matter what they are)
 
True, we have not muc liberas, but this has no relation with education, richness or becoming at city or village. We are what state wanted. Nationalists. All of us, leftist, rightist or religious people.
 
 
 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 12:14
It's still secularism (French Laicism by the way), Erkut. Believe me. I have thought it for ages that whether Turkey is really secular or not. The problem is due to our uneducated villagers who might actually be quite jihadist and who might tend to believe that the west was evil.
 
So,
 
Turkey doesn't have millions of industrilized liberal citizens who are also secular and do know what secularism really means.
 
Turkey does have millons of poor villagers whose religious thoughts are dreadfully traumatic.
 
So
 
Religious affairs must be controlled.
 
If Turkish people respect American people, this is because of this.
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(quiet voice) probably not.
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