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Spain?

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Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Spain?
    Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 13:47
Just curious about Spain. My mind is pretty cloudy on who lived in Spain prior to the Roman and Carthaginian invasions. The Celts perhaps?

Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 14:41
There were indeed celts, but they were mixed with a (probably pre-indo-european) people. They're called the Celtiberians. Furthermore there were the Lusitanians in the area what is now Portugal. In the south (around Sevilla) there was the kingdom/empire of Tartessos, which appears to have been very prosperous. In Galicia there were probably Celts (compare Gallicia with Gallia (Gaul)). And there were of course the Basques. They lived in a larger area they live now. they roughly lived in the area between Santander and Bordeux.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 22:23
It's a shame that the only Celtic country left in Spain now-a-days in Galician - however, as a Machero, I don't really mind...in any case, I would like to make a note that although maps of the Roman Empire put the Basque Country as Roman Territory, it was never fully conquered, romanized, or annexed.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 18:04
The Phoenicians and Greeks also planted colonies in Spain.  Remember, that before the "Carthaginians", the colony of Gadez was established.
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  Quote pytheas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 21:51

Great topic!  I have actually done quite a bit of research on the Iberian Penninsula (Spain and Portugal) recently. 

Prior to the Carthaginians and Romans there were several intersting groups known to have occupied Iberia.  A group known as the Celtiberians were what modern scholars believe were a loosely related group that were a mixture of Celtic and a pre-Indoeuropean population.  There are a number of tribal names offered in classical writings. 

These groups mingled into the penninsula during the bronze age and as stated before were a mixed race.  They are responsible for constructing what are referred to by archaeologists (and dervived from Caesar's use of the term) as oppida and are widely known as hill forts.  These oppida were typically built on hilltops and/or along strategic river and sea routes. 

Later conflicts between these varied groups were overshadowed by warefare with Carthage, Ionic Greek colonists, and Rome shaped the culture and development of this group.  Another related group, also listed by Roman writers as one of the tribes of Iberia are the Tartesseans who controlled maritime traffic and commerce from the Atlantic into the Mediteranean.  Their culture appears to be related to the archaeological site located in the Spanish southwest in a region known as Andalusia.  They were responsible for mining operations and trade of the ore with the Phoenicians and led to eventual Phoenician colonization.  Although some scholars disagree on the spirit in which the Phoenicians arrived on the scene--as colonizers, conquerors, or for purely trade.  Of course their evolution eventually merged with a Phoenician political refuge on the shores of north Africa, a small city named Carthage to escape political persecution from the invading Assyrian Empire in the East, where the final independent Phoenician city of Tyre had at last fallen to decades of siege warfare. 

This led to the Carthaginian era in Iberia and brought the penninsula's inhabitants more into the Mediteranean world.  Successive territorial disputes with Greek colonists and Rome brough those cultural and economic influences into the region culminating in the Punic Wars and the Roman period that lasted until the dissintegration of the Western Roman Empire and the Visigothic era of the Early Medieval period. 

I would say that the classical period of Spain and Portugal involved the Celtiberians, and in specific in earlier times the Tarteseans in the extreme south west corner of the penninsula and whom founded the city Gadir, (known today as Cadiz).  Later on the Lusitanians along the western coast (modern Portugal), and the Asrures that fought a series very successful and bitter guerilla wars with the Roman Republic and was later the staging area for Caesar before he took command in Gaul. 

I have furnished a list of books that might help further enlighten about Iberian prehistory and its place in the Classical World.

For Iberian prehistory refer to the following:

1. Castro, M.C.F.  Iberian Prehistory.  Blackwell Press, 1995.

2. Harrison, R.J. Spain at the Dawn of History.  Thames and Hudson, Ltd., 1988.

For Celtic influence refer to the following:

1. James, S.  The Atlantic Celts .  The University of Wisconsin Press, 1999. (More to do with the question of ethnic identity but has wide-ranging impact on Celtic research in Euope as a whole.)

2. Maier, B. (translated by K. Windle).  The Celts The University of Notre Dame Press, 2003.

3.  Rankin, H.D.  Celts and the Classical World.  Areopagitica Press, 1987.

4.  Ellis, P.B.  The Celtic Empire.  Carroll & Graf Publishers, 2001.

And for information on the Greeks and Phonecian/Punics in the regions refer to:

1. Cunliffe, B.  The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek.  Walker & Company, 2002.  (personally, a favorite topic)

2.  Hodge, A.T.  Ancient Greek France .  University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999.

3.  Carpenter, R.  Beyond the Pillars of Heracles.  Delacorte Press, 1966.  (A very good resource regarding ancient sea explorers, including Pytheas of Massalia)

4.  Aubet, M. E.  The Phoenicians and the West.  2nd Ed.  Cambridge University Press, 2001.  (This follows the evolution of the Phoenician politico-economic growth and the eventual colonization of the west, including Sicily, north and west Africa, and Iberia).

 

Thanks for the forum to share this information!

Joel (Pytheas)

Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2004 at 12:28
And later on came the Arab invasions from nothern Africa, which occupied the south and parts of the north of the peninsula. They were called moors or saracens and they left a profound legacy on both spanish and portuguese cultures, especially those from the south (Andaluzia in Spain and Algarve in Portugal).
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 11:27


Very interesting  I feel enlightened.  So what about these  Moops(Seinfeld insider joke)
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  Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 15:44
Ibernians in the south east and west, some celts in the northern parts.

According to Celtic mythology, the Milesians(conqueours of the Tautha De Dannan) came from Spain(or what they thought as Hades)
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  Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 09:23

Originally posted by Dux

It's a shame that the only Celtic country left in Spain now-a-days in Galician - however, as a Machero, I don't really mind...in any case, I would like to make a note that although maps of the Roman Empire put the Basque Country as Roman Territory, it was never fully conquered, romanized, or annexed.

The territory was annexed, although the basques as other tribes were not romaniced.

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  Quote oodog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 12:10
I am going to Barcelona. I really wanna know sth about Catalonian. Are they have  any relation with the Alan people who lived in the Hungarian steppe before the Hun's invasion?
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  Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 08:46

Originally posted by oodog

I am going to Barcelona. I really wanna know sth about Catalonian. Are they have  any relation with the Alan people who lived in the Hungarian steppe before the Hun's invasion?

The Alans, I don't know if they are the same that you're talking about, where they germanic?; invaded Hispania in 409 AD with Suevii and Vandals, they didn't last very long, indeed.



Edited by faram
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 12:24
The Alans (yes, the same people from the eastern Ukrainian steppe) which did invade Spain along with the Germanics were indeed an Iranic group.  As for Catalonia, I read once that the origin of the name was perhaps "Gothalania", (i.e. the land of the Goths and Alans), however, an alternate etymology renders the name from "Gothalandia", simply "the land of the Goths". 
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 11:46
Actually, since my second last name is Catalan [Finegold Catalan according to my passport] I've looked at the history, and the name for Catalunia actually comes from my relatives who were the Catalons, the French dukes of Aquitaine.  Sometime around 734 A.D. they moved south from Aquitaine, probably due to the Moor defeat at Tours, and invaded Northern Spain.  Upon their victory in the North the leaders split their conquests between their seven captains - and that's probably where the name comes from.

Unfortunately, after a thousand three hundred years I doubt my blood is anywhere related to the original Catalons - just the name.  Which is good enough for me.
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