Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Top 100 Generals Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 09:42 |
Okay, another collection of changes desired Suvorov -- Move higher still. I will do so. Wellington -- Move down. I will do so. Von Moltke -- Move up. I will do so; I forgot to do so on the second iteration of the list that I just posted. Oops. Gustav II Adoph -- Move down. Well, I'll think about it. He's actually my favorite commander, so I'm biased. Well, him and Turenne, that is. Baji Rao and Maharaja Ranjit Singh -- I will research them and see what to do with them. The problem is, I keep getting candidates, but nobody ever says, "so-and-so should be off the list." The hardest part is seeing who to take off. Byzantine emperors -- Their high ranks are relics of Travis Congleton's list. I personally have been moving them down. He had Heraclius at 7th... I would be happy to move them down a little more Marius and Sulla -- I will move Sulla much further down. It might be helpful to develop a ranking of each nation's generals on the list to make sure the heirarchy of them stays right. I'll post that later. Manstein -- Move down. I will NOT do so. The Sichelschnitt plan for the conquest of France, one of the most brilliant battle plans ever, was his idea that he championed over opposition from many quarters. Guderian -- Move up a little. I'll look into it. Epaminondas -- Move down. He was one of the first (maybe the first) commanders to scientifically plan a battle, instead of lining up and charging, or doing a simple ambush. That's why he is so high. I could move him down more. von Rundstedt -- Move on. Well, he was a good, competent general, but I don't know if he is good enough to go on the list. Comments on the top 4: I'm done moving them around. Good cases can be made for all of them, so since it is a simple matter of personal opinion, and this list is mine, I say--I'll leave them the way it is. Marius -- Higher. Really? I know he reorganized the army and fought barbarians, but I don't know of a case where he really fought equally competent troops under a competent leader. Except when he lost to Sulla. Heraclius -- I really do not know much about him, except he defeated the Avar siege on Constantinople and forced back the Persians and devised the thema system of military organization and he lost the battle of Yarmuck to Khalid ibn Al-Walid. Or at least was still emperor then; I can't remember if he was in actual command. So he should go higher? I can do that. But this list is already a little Roman and Byzantine heavy. Tamerlane is already on the list at #22 74. Stanisław Koniecpolski You're right, he should be higher. I'll think about dropping Gustav also. Maybe. "Horatio Nelson should be above him as he defeated Napoleon twice." Highly misleading comment. Napoleon was not the admiral. If he was, then you could say that. BTW, remember this list is not paying attention to naval history at all.
Originally posted by Spartan
Lots of people missing on this list.
US Grant for one, the first industrial general ever. ANd any military man I ever speak to always calls him the Americas best.
How about Cyrus the Great?
|
Good to see you here, Spartan, a veteran of lists like this. I used your list as one of the sources. US Grant is on at #70, Cyrus the Great is on at #21. I wouldn't have such important people missing!! Okay, that does it for this batch of comments. Next batch?
|
|
Emperor Barbarossa
Caliph
Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 10:35 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
I don't think it took much of a great commander to just use horse archer tactics perfected hundreds of years ago. I was arguing about the top three generals on the list. Napoleon can definitely compete with Genghis Khan with his tons of great victories. So what if he was defeated in three different areas, Genghis Khan was defeated in Korea, Vietnam, and Japan.
It shows your lack of knowledge about the great Ghenghiz if you dilute it all down just into some horsemen with bows and arrows. What about the millitary training, the tactics, the decoy's, spies, propoganda operations the planned nature of the operations, just going into Russia at Winter and being victorious is enough to put the guy at number one. Who else has gone into Russia in Winter and won?
Ghenghiz was defeated by Japan? are you sure sure.
Napoleon is severly over-rated, he was a flawed general who was awfull at navy battles and is remembered for his terrible losses.
Horatio Nelson should be above him as he defeated Napoleon twice. |
DSMeyers1 beat me to this. Your arguments are so misleading. Napoleon was not, I reapeat, was not in command of the navy. Nelson beat the French admiral, not Napoleon. Also, the Mongolians got completely lost in Vietnam and Japan, and had some horrible losses in Korea. Napoleon is not overrated, if anything, he is underrated. He won more great victories than any other general in history against enemies with larger aremies than his. The only reason he lost in the end was that all of Europe was fighting against him. Genghis Khan never had a huge coalition consisting of many different nations against him. Napoleon endured such a coalition for over fifteen years.
|
|
|
DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 10:47 |
Okay, here are the generals on the list, along with a few that were close to making it, sorted by the nation.
Country |
Top Generals |
Other good
generals |
Macedonia |
Alexander, Philip II |
|
France |
Napoleon, Turenne, de
Saxe |
Davout, Vauban,
Conde, Villars, Massena, Lannes, Luxembourg |
Mongols |
Temujin, Subotai,
Tamerlane |
Jebe, Mukhali the
Jalair |
Carthage |
Hannibal |
Hamilcar |
Prussia |
Frederick the Great,
von Moltke |
|
England |
Marlborough,
Wellington |
William Slim, Oliver
Cromwell, Edward I, Richard I, James Graham, Clive, Moore |
Rome |
Caesar, Gaius Marius,
Scipio Africanus |
Sulla, Stilicho,
Aurelian, Severus, Marcellus, Constantine I, Trajan, Scipio Africanus Minor,
Corbulo |
Sweden |
Gustavus II Adophus,
Charles XII |
|
Byzantines |
Belisarius, Heraclius |
Leo III, Alexius I, Narses
|
Austria |
Montecuccoli, Prince
Eugene, Wallenstein |
Tilly |
Bohemia |
Jan
Zizka, |
Prokop Holy |
Persia |
Cyrus the Great,
Nadir Shah |
|
Russia |
Suvorov |
Rokossovsky, Zhukov,
Bagration, Vasilevsky |
Ottomans |
Suleiman I |
Selim I |
Greece |
Epaminondas |
Pyrrhus of Epirus |
Germany |
Manstein, Guderian,
von Lettow-Vorbeck, Rommel |
von Runstedt |
Spain |
Cordoba, Parma |
Cortez, Pizarro, El
Cid |
Egypt |
Thutmose III` |
Ramses II |
Arabs |
al-Walid |
Saladin |
United States |
Scott, Grant |
Patton, Sherman,
Washington, Greene |
Japan |
Shingen, Hideyoshi,
Nobunaga |
|
Netherlands |
Maurice of Nassau |
|
Assyria |
Tiglath Pileser III |
|
China |
Qi Jiguang |
Li Shi Min, Kangxi,
Sun Tzu, Ban Chao |
Confederates |
Lee, Jackson |
Forrest |
Mughal |
Babur |
|
Poland |
Koniedpolski |
Sobieski,
Chodkiewicz, Rożyński |
Normandy |
|
Guiscard, William the
Conqueror |
Israel |
|
David, Joshua |
Zulu |
|
Shaka |
Scotland |
|
Robert the Bruce |
India |
|
Maurya |
Hun |
|
Attila |
Franks |
|
Charlemagne, Charles
Martel |
Hittites |
|
Muwatalli II |
Turkey |
|
Ataturk |
Manchu |
|
Nurhaci |
The question is: what other nations are there that should be represented on the list? What are we missing? For example, the Inca and Aztecs are not represented. Another thing: it would be good to make sure that each nation's generals are ranked properly. For example, should Patton or Grant be higher?
Edited by DSMyers1 - 22-Jul-2006 at 14:59
|
|
Emperor Barbarossa
Caliph
Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 11:02 |
If you are thinking of adding another Scot, add Andrew de Moray. He was the leader at Stirling Bridge, and he gets no credit, because he died early. Without him, Wallace may have faced the English on an open field in Stirling, and would have been beaten horribly like at Falkirk. As I said, do not add William Wallace, he did nothing but lose and lose(Falkirk, Stirling Castle). He only gets credit because he died after being captured. I think Moray's death was greater, he died from wounds in a battle.
|
|
|
Akolouthos
Sultan
Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 11:32 |
Regarding Marius, one might argue that he fought sdomewhat equally competent troops during the Social War, which, in its initial stages, was a bit less of a foregone conclusion than we often realize today. Mainly I'm just happy to see him that high on the list, as many forget him.
Sorry about not noticing Tamerlane; my mistake. Once again, a wonderful, comprehensive list.
-Akolouthos
|
|
ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 11:50 |
Originally posted by DSMyers1
Another thing: it would be good to make sure that each nation's generals are ranked properly. |
IMO Sobieski was better than Koniecpolski.
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 11:53 |
A newer idea: maybe we should close up by the idea: take 50 nations and
have one superb general and one lower but still good general, this
would keep everything balanced. then later on we can put them into
correct lineup.
And I had trhe idea of Isaak I Komnenos His military career was so high
that enemies of Rome did not dare to attack it during his rule.
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 11:59 |
I'll represent my idea like this by your previous list and my biased ideas...
Country |
Top Generals |
Other good
generals |
Macedonia |
Alexander
|
Philip II
|
France |
Napoleon
|
Turenne |
Mongols |
Temujin |
Tamerlane |
Carthage |
Hannibal |
Hamilcar |
Prussia |
von Moltke |
Frederick the Great |
England |
Marlborough |
Oliver
Cromwell
|
Rome |
Caesar |
Traianus |
Sweden |
Charles XII |
Gustav II Adolf
|
Byzantines |
Belisarius
|
Isaak I Komnenos
|
Austria |
Prince
Eugene |
Wallenstein |
Bohemia |
Jan
Zizka |
Prokop Holy |
Persia |
Cyrus the Great |
Nadir Shah
|
Russia |
Suvorov |
Bagration |
Ottomans |
Suleiman I |
Selim I |
Greece |
Epaminondas |
Pyrrhus of Epirus |
Germany |
Rommel |
von Runstedt |
Spain |
Cordoba |
Parma |
Egypt |
Thutmose III` |
Ramses II |
Arabs |
al-Walid |
Saladin |
United States |
Grant |
Scott |
Japan |
Hideyoshi |
Nobunaga |
Netherlands |
Maurice of Nassau |
|
Assyria |
Tiglath Pileser III |
|
China |
Qi Jiguang |
Sun Tzu |
Confederates |
Lee |
Jackson |
Mughal |
Babur |
|
Poland |
Koniecpolski |
Sobieski
|
Ofcourse I mentioned my BIASED ideas...
|
|
Gargoyle
Colonel
Joined: 25-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 681
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 13:16 |
Dear DSMyers1,
WOW! What a monumental task you have in front of you. I wish you success in your endevour. Can I offer a suggestion?..... Could you please add Marcus Vipsanius AGGRIPA to your list? For obvious reasons... Your card game would simply be incomplete without him.
|
|
DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:18 |
Originally posted by rider
A newer idea: maybe we should close up by the idea: take 50 nations and
have one superb general and one lower but still good general, this
would keep everything balanced. then later on we can put them into
correct lineup.
And I had trhe idea of Isaak I Komnenos His military career was so high
that enemies of Rome did not dare to attack it during his rule.
|
My idea is to get the absolute top 100 generals of all time. The reason I am trying to emphasize balance is that many times the western nations are emphasized in such lists at the expense of potentially greater generals elsewhere. The idea of manufacturing balance according to your idea is against the plan of having the absolute top 100, regardless of nation. A few other generals I am looking at: Sargon of Akkad Autzotl one of these three: Pachacuti, Tupac Inca Yupanqui, Huayna Cpac Nebuchadnezzar II Mithridates I The present list may be over-emphasizing the Romans and Byzantines, and perhaps the French. I am not sure that, say, Davout was better than Thutmose III
Edited by DSMyers1 - 22-Jul-2006 at 14:53
|
|
DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:21 |
Originally posted by Gargoyle
Dear DSMyers1,
WOW! What a monumental task you have in front of you. I wish you success in your endevour. Can I offer a suggestion?..... Could you please add Marcus Vipsanius AGGRIPA to your list? For obvious reasons... Your card game would simply be incomplete without him.
|
I'm afraid I won't be able to add Agrippa there to the list. His accomplishments were greater aboard ship than on land; he probably was one of the great admirals of all time. In addition I already have some 11 (!!) generals from Rome on the list. Thanks!
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:44 |
Well, you have two byzantines. And replace one Roman with Isaak I Komnenos (maybe Corbulo)
|
|
DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:58 |
Originally posted by rider
Well, you have two byzantines. And replace one Roman with Isaak I Komnenos (maybe Corbulo)
|
Actually, I have 5 Byzantines already: Heraclius, Belesarius, Leo III the Isaurian, Alexius I Komnenos, and Narsus. I failed to include all of them on my nation-by-nation list. From what I have seen, Isaac was not that great a general. Corbulo is actually not on the list, he is in something like 105th position.
|
|
Majkes
Chieftain
Imperial Ambassador
Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 16:08 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
It Who else has gone into Russia in Winter and won?
|
Polish Lithuanian army in 1582 in the war against Ivan IV Scary.
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 17:30 |
Ok, forget about Rundstedt, i thought the invasion of France was planend by him in person. and i forgot to comemtn on Lettow-Vorbeck. arguably his campaign in German east-africa was brilliant but it was only a secondary theater and whom did he fought? unmotivated Indians and Portuguese colonial troops...you can keep him on the list but move him down a little.
japanese daimyos. i'm not happy with having three damyios, they only fought a rather small war and they were not that outstanding....after all they failed in Korea. my idea, through out 2 and move down the reimaining daimyo.
BTW, why is Qi Jiguang number 1 chinese general? i can't really agree. is it because he constructed the great wall? he just fought Japanese pirats, i don't think thats too spectacular...
I wanted to mention them earlier but why David and Joshua?? and i don't know if we can trust the bible as a source...
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 17:31 |
Originally posted by Majkes
Originally posted by Bulldog
It Who else has gone into Russia in Winter and won?
|
Polish Lithuanian army in 1582 in the war against Ivan IV Scary. |
Cruel...
|
|
ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 00:10 |
Originally posted by Majkes
Originally posted by Bulldog
It Who else has gone into Russia in Winter and won?
|
Polish Lithuanian army in 1582 in the war against Ivan IV Scary. |
And Polish-Lithuanian army in the war 1609-1618. And Polish soldiers who supported False Dimitri II in 1607-1608.
|
|
clement207
Immortal Guard
Joined: 15-Jul-2006
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 08:59 |
Why don't you list out each of those 100 generals achievements?
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 10:31 |
It isn't that simple besides some that you can write: conquered known world.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 12:01 |
[QUOTE=DSMyers1]Okay, another collection of changes desired
Suvorov -- Move higher still. I will do so.
suvorov is a little lucky dog.
|
|