...Napoleonic's forces is always outnumberd exept for the russian campaign.
I believe you may have missed a few campaigns there - such as 1806 against the Prussians, 1808 against the British / Spanish, 1809 against the Austrians.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
Exactly what I was thinking Deadkenny...Samara you chose to ignore just a few
of Napoleon's campaigns. Also, if you look up the Iberian campaigns of
Scipio, you will find that he was in fact outnumbered. eg. The Battle
of Ilipa. Also, he had a numerical disadvantage in Africa too. eg.
Utica, Great Plains, Zama.etc
In 1806, the coalition of Prussia, Russia, Sweden and England are outnumbered than French Forces. Napoleon suceed to divide their ennemy and to beat prussia with a superiority but if the prussia join the russia, the allied forces have 2* more than fr forces.
In 1809, Austrian Forces was outnumberd too at the begining of campaign because the major fr army is engaged in Spain.
First, if you believe that an 18 hour time lag is 'real time', or even close to it, then you obviously don't know what 'real time' means. I didn't deny that it was a valuable source of information. As I said it would have been extremely valuable in determining when and where to attack. Your suggestion that it could be / would be used to develop a repertoire of counter moves is ridiculous. The way you have taken this one source and presented it as if it was something that never occurred before or after during the war is simply misleading. It does not support your claim that Rommel was at best a mediocre general.
Well, this demonstrates clearly your complete lack of understanding of military operations of the time and also a general ignorance of the subject. I never specified or even mentioned an 18 hour time lag, thats just your assumption. I stated that by lunchtime the next day Rommel was made aware of British dispositions and intentions as they stood the previous evening. Since the British were habitually woefully slow in implementing decisions made at GHQ, as evidenced by this account from Field Marshal Lord Carvers diary account during the Gazala battles,
First light: units break leaguer: armoured cars move out to locate enemy. One or two hours pass before anyone has a clear idea of where the enemy are today. Divisional commanders visit Brigade commanders to find out the form before returning to meet Corps commander somewhere convenient to both. About two hours spent travelling. Corps commander, who may or may not have seen or Spoken to Army commander, confers with divisional commanders and probably gives orders. Probably midday by now. No major change in dispositions made before this. Resulting from orders armoured brigades may be moved to new areas, where Divisional commander meets Brigade commander and tells him what to do. More time spent in discussion. Brigade commander summons COs: orders issued, units briefed, etc. probably about 4PM or later by now. By the time that attack is launched, it is nearly last light and everybody realizes it cannot achieve much before dark, and so does not try very hard.
Such circumstances result in as near to a real time environment for Rommel as makes no difference.
A repertoire of counter moves is only ridiculous to someone who has never held command in the military. All commanders from Corporal to General, have a repertoire of counter moves; as youd well know had you any idea of what you are pontificating about. Ask anyone who has served in the military in a command function; they relate to a mental preparation that is based on training and doctrine, along the lines of if the enemy does this, I will do this or that format. If the commander in question knows exactly where the enemy is and exactly what theyre about to do, the generation and implementation of such a repertoire is made that much easier, i.e. the enemy is definitely going to do this so I can most effectively counter by doing the following... The uncertainty; the so called fog of war is effectively removed. Rommel had this massive advantage for the first six months of 1942.
Originally posted by deadkenny
There are many other example during the war where intelligence coups were simply ignored because they did not fit into the pre-conceived notions of the recipient.
Not just intelligence coups, it seems, judging by your responses so far.
Originally posted by deadkenny
I didn't say that the Allies had offsetting Enigma intel 'at the same time'. The point is that both sides, at one time or another, had good intel on the other side. The one instance that you have referenced doesn't 'trump' all the others, rendering them meaningless. The Germans also had good signal intel on the British at various points. The intel 'game' was something that went on for the duration, with each side gaining the advantage at various points in time. Again, it is misleading to present this one example as if it was something completely different from anything else that happened during the conflict. Gaining information about your opponent, be it from prisoner interrogation, signals intel, or high level code breaking, and then using that information to gain an advantage was 'part' of the battle, not something separate and distinct from it.
This particular intelligence coup cannot just be dismissed as just part of an ongoing intelligence war. The timing and credibility of the information supplied at that particular time was critical in Rommels decision making during his second drive across Cyrenaica and this is also testified to by German accounts, as Ive stated previously. Again This is something youd know if youd explored the campaign beyond a superficial level.
Originally posted by deadkenny
First, you are the one trying to support a 'theory', that is specifically that Rommel was overrated. In doing that you have attempted to suggest that Rommel's victories were attributable to something other than Rommel's skill and ability as a commander. So I raised the issue of Rommel's first offensive because your claim was based on attributing Rommel's 1942 drive to El Alamein to the code breaking. Not addressing the success of Rommel's first offensive is a glaring gap in your argument, so I suppose I can understand why you prefer not to highlight it.
Regarding the numbers, lol, that's a great 'defense' of your claims. Right up there with the 'I think I read it something' cite that I've seen here more than once. Again, you are the one trying to support a theory. In trying to do so,you have made claims to the effect that the British defenses were 'denuded', that Rommel received 'massive reinforcements' and that Rommel had a 'huge advantage' in quantity / quality of AFV's. Yes, I have read detailed accounts / analysis of the campaign in question. I am left to wonder whether or not you have, since you appear to have so many wrong impressions. The reason I asked about the figures is because you clearly don't know, yet you are making claims regarding the situation anyway. This is similar to the German population question that came up in another thread, where you made a claim that the German population was much higher (100 million IIRC) than most sources state, but then couldn't back it up. Similar situation here. The facts are that the British defense were not 'denuded', Rommel had no huge numerical advantage. Rommel's 'massive reinforcements' never amounted to a small fraction of what the British could and did ship in and Rommel never held a huge numerical advantage, although the British did on a number of occasions. Look at the Second Battle of El Alamein for instance, where the Axis were outnumbered by 2 to 1 or better in pretty well every category. In particular the British had over 1,000 tanks (mostly good American tanks) vs. just over 500 Axis tanks, over half of which were obsolescent Italian tanks and many of the remainder were older German models. So the British had the advantage in both quantity and quality in that instance. Can you name a single battle where Rommel had such an advantage? Making a claim and then failing to back it up by simply stating that the evidence is readily available in the public domain is not a compelling argument.
This proves conclusively you cannot have studied the North African campaigns of 1940-42. Ive not made claims, Ive stated historical facts. I chose not to get bogged down in the sources/numbers games you appear to delight in as I mistakenly assumed you might have some inkling of what you are talking about, given your precipitate rush to defend your hero. Nor will I be dragged off topic by your inaccurate and offensive allegations about my conduct in another thread; yet another feeble attempt, in my opinion, to confuse the issue at hand and an attempt to save face when your lack of knowledge is becoming more and more evident. There is no need to address the campaign of 1941, as Rommel followed the same approach as had OConner against the Italians but in reverse. Rommel, like OConnor attacked forces that were poorly trained or inexperienced and at the end of extended supply lines. Rommels failure to destroy the British contrasts with Oconnors campaign as an example of competent generalship against a precipitate and piecemeal commitment of forces squandering a quantative and qualitive superiority, as exemplified by Rommels attack.
As regards Alemein, had you studied above the superficial level, you would have known that the relative armour strengths you blithely quote above are more correctly: 1029 available allied tanks against 489 axis. Instead you just use the ball park figures you find in school books. Pathetic.
Do us both a favour and go do some research, rather than making wild ad hominem allegations and expecting me to spoon feed you the information you are sadly lacking. If you come back with a counter argument worthy of the name, I might take you seriously, but I doubt this will happen since once you actually do some detailed research it may open your eyes, if not your mind, to the inevitable conclusion that the Rommel legend was a product more of Nazi propaganda than his actual talent as a Commander.
As I have said he initially moved to Southern Italy to
establish a base there and due to his prescence most of the South of Italy
defected in the next few years, so he was gaining territory initially, thereby
one could define his actions following Cannae as succesful offensive
operations, however that success as we know did not last and he was eventually
contained in the South however to say that he was contained immediately
succeeding Cannae is to define having ones army present in an area as the same
as being contained in it.
Id define them more as consolidation operations rather
than offensive. However in devastating the lands south of the Volturnus while
the Romans were at the same time devastating the lands north of the Volturnus
to create a cordon sanitaire he did end up painting himself into a corner
from with he never managed to escape.
Originally posted by praetor
multimedia news coverage? well technically speaking they
did have it (word of mouth and various written forms). As for Celebrity
scandals well the late republic certainly had its fair share such as Clodius
sneaking into the Bona Dea festival and then there was Caesar's
alleged homosexual relationship with Nicomedes the king of Bithynia in which he
was supposedly the "passive" one (now how did that piece of
information survive the machinations of the Caesarean faction?) and then
there's Suetonius from the imperial period whose works are more then a little
tabloid like in content. Much of Cicero's writings also survived, some of which
was critical of Caesar. On a final note Caesar's commentaries on the Gallic
war's were published prior to his dictatorship and Roman aristocrats were in
constant contact with members of his staff, indeed Cato even tried to charge
him for one of his actions during these wars. Caesar's commentaries were indeed
works of propaganda however they were far from works of fiction.
Yet how much credibility do we attach to Suetonius and his
ilk? You said it yourself with the word tabloid, an entertaining read but
lightweight as regards journalism. My other reservation regarding his
commentaries is that although they were published as you say before his
dictatorship, how can we be sure that the ones we read today were never doctored
during the reign of Augustus? [The Bible was considered gospel, until the
discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls. I really dont know.
Id define them more as consolidation operations rather
than offensive. However in devastating the lands south of the Volturnus while
the Romans were at the same time devastating the lands north of the Volturnus
to create a cordon sanitaire he did end up painting himself into a corner
from with he never managed to escape.
Indeed Hannibal lacked the resources under Rome's Fabian strategy to expand his area of influence into the North without losing much of the South (hence a stalemate is reached), which was an easier place for either Carthage or Macedonia to send said resources unless Rome was forced from Iberia.
Originally posted by Challenger2
Yet how much credibility do we attach to Suetonius and his
ilk? You said it yourself with the word tabloid, an entertaining read but
lightweight as regards journalism. My other reservation regarding his
commentaries is that although they were published as you say before his
dictatorship, how can we be sure that the ones we read today were never doctored
during the reign of Augustus? [The Bible was considered gospel, until the
discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls. I really dont know.
You said Antiquity (in this case referring to Ancient Rome) wasn't full of celebrity scandals and I mentioned that Suetonius is full of them. Augustus may have doctored the commentaries but we would probably know if he did as we do know of his censorship of Caesar's earliest poetry, because Rome's elite many of whom would have read Caesar's commentaries would likely have informed posterity as to their doctoring. Many of Rome's elite, expressed and wrote/wrote of highly unfavourable opinions of Caesar and/or those who later used his name eg. Cicero, Tacitus and our tabloid friend Suetonius. We cannot be sure they were never doctored but why should they be Caesar himself paints a VERY favourable picture of himself in them anyway.
Not just intelligence
coups, it seems, judging by your responses so far.
I suppose you don't see
the hypocrisy in accusing me of making 'ad hominem' attacks (below)
when that is in fact what you are doing and I am not.
Originally posted by Challenger2
This
particular intelligence coup cannot just be dismissed as just
part of an ongoing intelligence war. The timing and credibility of
the information supplied at that particular time was critical in
Rommels decision making during his second drive across Cyrenaica
and this is also testified to by German accounts, as Ive stated
previously. Again This is something youd know if youd explored
the campaign beyond a superficial level.
I'm not dismissing it.
However you do appear to be dismissing 'Engima' which was the biggest
intelligence coup of the war. I have studied the campaign in detail.
What is becoming increasingly apparent is that you have not. You
read one book that describes the good intel that the Germans had for
a certain period and base your entire 'theory' of Rommel's command
ability on that. A clear sign that you are not as well read on the
subject as you pretend to be.
Originally posted by Challenger2
This proves conclusively
you cannot have studied the North African campaigns of 1940-42. Ive
not made claims, Ive stated historical facts.
No, you've stated vague
generalities about the campaign that are not particularly accurate,
such as British defenses 'denuded', 'massive reinforcments' for
Rommel and 'huge advantage' for Rommel. You've then consistently
failed to back up those claims. Your argument that the information
supporting your claims in 'readily
available in the public domain ' is
laughable. If it is so 'readily available' then why don't you
simply post exactly what the British supposedly removed from the
front in Cyrenaica to go to Greece that left their defenses
'denuded', as you claim? It is because you can't, because you don't
know, because your claim is false.
Originally posted by Challenger2
I chose not to get bogged
down in the sources/numbers games you appear to delight in as I
mistakenly assumed you might have some inkling of what you are
talking about, given your precipitate rush to defend your hero.
Lol. This is actually
pretty funny. Not 'bogged down' in sources or numbers? I can
understand why you prefer to avoid this, since in fact you don't
really know what you're talking about. However, sources and
'numbers' are what proper historical study is based upon. You on the
other hand appear to be basing your comments on little more than your
anti-German prejudices and the occasional piece of information you've
happened across which you fail to put in its proper context due
to your lack of a comprehensive understanding. Rommel is very far
from being a 'hero' to me. However I have made a balanced assessment
of his military performance, which you have failed to do with your
'everything German is bad' bias.
Originally posted by Challenger2
Nor will I be dragged off
topic by your inaccurate and offensive allegations about my conduct
in another thread; yet another feeble attempt, in my opinion, to
confuse the issue at hand and an attempt to save face when your lack
of knowledge is becoming more and more evident.
No, it is part of a
pattern in your posts, where you consistently make statements that
you cannot back up with proper cites. In that case it was your claim
that the German population was 100 million, which is much higher than
other sources, and which you could not justify.
Originally posted by Challenger2
There is no need to
address the campaign of 1941, as Rommel followed the same approach as
had OConner against the Italians but in reverse. Rommel, like
OConnor attacked forces that were poorly trained or inexperienced
and at the end of extended supply lines. Rommels failure to
destroy the British contrasts with Oconnors campaign as an example
of competent generalship against a precipitate and piecemeal
commitment of forces squandering a quantative and qualitive
superiority, as exemplified by Rommels attack.
But the British were
fighting the Italians, the Germans were fighting the British. Which
British units were 'poorly trained'? The British held Tobruk at the
time, the Axis supplies were coming from Tripoli. So who was further
from their supply source as the Axis advanced across Cyrenaica? Most
of the forces available to Rommel were actually Italian. So how do
you reconcile the fact that the British crushed a much larger Italian
force when it was led by Italians but Italian units, with a few
German units, were able to defeat the British with Rommel in command,
and when the numbers were much more even.
Originally posted by Challenger2
As regards Alemein, had
you studied above the superficial level, you would have known that
the relative armour strengths you blithely quote above are more
correctly: 1029 available allied tanks against 489 axis. Instead you
just use the ball park figures you find in school books.
Pathetic.
Congratulations, you
actually looked up some 'numbers' on Wiki. However, this
conclusively demonstrates that you don't really know as much as you
pretend to know about the conflict, or about historical research.
First let me start with the following source: Afrika
Korps by Major K.J. Macksey, M.C. Major Macksey says that at
Second Alamein the British had over a thousand tanks. So I
suppose you must consider Major Macksey to have only studied the
battle at 'the superficial level' and have used 'school books'
figures. BTW Major Macksey agrees with the 489 figure for the Axis
which you quoted from Wiki. So now I check History of the Second
World War by B.H. Liddell Hart. Hart says that the British had
1,440 tanks of which 1,229 were 'ready for action'. He also states
that the Axis had 260 German tanks (20 under repair, 30 light Panzer
II's) and 280 Italian tanks. Finally, if you had bothered to look
at your Wiki source more than 'superficially', you would have noted
the source was Playfair, Maj.Gen.I.S.O. - History of WW II The
Mediterranean & Middle East. This is what Playfair has to say
about the number of tanks for each side in the Second Battle of El
Alamein:
Playfair, Pg 9 - 1,029 tanks
ready for action broke down into: 170 M3 Grants, 252 M4 Shermans, 216
Crusader II, 78 Crusader III, 119 M3 Honeys, 194 Valentine. Playfair
also notes that 200 tanks were available as replacements and there
was over 1000 tanks in workshops being repaired, overhauled or
modified
Playfair,
Pg 9-11 - broken down into 31 x Panzer II, 85 x Panzer III (short
50), 88 x Panzer III (long 50), 8 x Panzer IV (short 75), 30 x Panzer
IV (long 75), 7 x Command tanks, 278 x M13/40 Variants, 20 x "light"
tanks. Playfair notes that another 23 German tanks were under repair
but these have been excluded from the above total
So
Playfair actually says that the British had 1,029 in the front,
another 200 available for replacements and a further 1,000
potentially available in 'workshops'. So, one might more generally
state that the British had 'over 1,000', or one might specify that
1,029 were in the front with the additional numbers described by
Playfair and / or Hart as 'available'. However, claiming that the
British only had exactly 1,029 is just plain wrong. I also note that
here you rather hypocritically 'accuse' me of not being specific,
whereas you previously excused yourself for not being specific.
Originally posted by Challenger2
Do us both a favour and go
do some research, rather than making wild ad hominem
allegations and expecting me to spoon feed you the information you
are sadly lacking. If you come back with a counter argument worthy of
the name, I might take you seriously, but I doubt this will happen
since once you actually do some detailed research it may open your
eyes, if not your mind, to the inevitable conclusion that the
Rommel legend was a product more of Nazi propaganda than his
actual talent as a Commander.
I have done 'research'.
Beyond your unattributed Wiki quote, you have not. You are the one
guilty of 'ad hominem' attacks. I do not expect you to provide me
with any accurate information, spoon fed or otherwise, since with the
rare Wiki exception you are not in possession of accurate
information. If you were actually as well read as you pretend to be,
you would know that Rommel's reputation is not based on 'Nazi
propaganda', unless you consider historians such as B.H.
Liddell Hart to be guilty of disseminating 'Nazi propaganda'.
Regarding your laughable 'worth' counter-argument comment you
started off stating generalities which were not particularly
accurate, and then completely failed to back up your claims. The one
actual specific stat that you attempted to use, the Wiki tank
reference, was inaccurate and incomplete as I have demonstrated. You
not offered any argument at all, simply your own biased anti-German
'opinions'. What is left for me to refute?
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
Lol. Yes, it does indeed take more time for me to reference good sources, such as Hart, Macksey, Playfair et al than it does for you to 'make up' false claims based on nothing, or reference Wiki (uncited). Frankly, at this point I have little interest in any response from you, since you contribute nothing substantive, just vague inaccurate generalities. I also note that you once again hypocritically 'attack' the 'delay' in my response while you took several days to respond to my previous post.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
There is no need for researches, first because this will go on and on, second: because it seems no one want to change his opinions...we are going in circles
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
Lol. Yes, it does indeed take more time for me to reference good sources, such as Hart, Macksey, Playfair et al....
Now your bluff is revealed. Had you actually read any of the sources you mention, you would have the answers to all the questions you keep asking me, and we might have a meaningful discourse. It's not very nice when someone else plays your silly games against you, is it?
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
There is no need for researches, first because this will go on and on, second: because it seems no one want to change his opinions...we are going in circles
Lol. Yes, it does indeed take more time for me to reference good sources, such as Hart, Macksey, Playfair et al....
Now your bluff is revealed. Had you actually
read any of the sources you mention, you would have the answers to all
the questions you keep asking me, and we might have a meaningful
discourse. It's not very nice when someone else plays your silly games
against you, is it?
I was asking you to back up your erroneous claims, such as British defenses 'denuded', Rommel receiving 'massive reinforcments' or Rommel having a 'huge advantage'. The sources I referenced do not back up your claim. As much as you keep trying to desperately obscure the fact - it still remains fact that you have made claims that you have failed to back up.
Originally posted by Challenger2
Originally posted by Illirac
Originally posted by Challenger2
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
There is no need for researches, first because this will go on and on, second: because it seems no one want to change his opinions...we are going in circles
True, we are as far as Deadkenny is concerned.
Really immature. If you believe you are somehow 'enhancing' your credibility here with these sorts of childish insults, you are quite wrong.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
Lol. Yes, it does indeed take more time for me to reference good sources, such as Hart, Macksey, Playfair et al....
Now your bluff is revealed. Had you actually
read any of the sources you mention, you would have the answers to all
the questions you keep asking me, and we might have a meaningful
discourse. It's not very nice when someone else plays your silly games
against you, is it?
I was asking you to back up your erroneous claims, such as British defenses 'denuded', Rommel receiving 'massive reinforcments' or Rommel having a 'huge advantage'. The sources I referenced do not back up your claim. As much as you keep trying to desperately obscure the fact - it still remains fact that you have made claims that you have failed to back up.
Originally posted by Challenger2
Originally posted by Illirac
Originally posted by Challenger2
After 6 days of frantic research, this is all you can come up with; wild assumptions, inaccurate and offensive accusations, but still nothing of substance, nothing that merits a response from me. Go away and do some more reading.
There is no need for researches, first because this will go on and on, second: because it seems no one want to change his opinions...we are going in circles
True, we are as far as Deadkenny is concerned.
Really immature. If you believe you are somehow 'enhancing' your credibility here with these sorts of childish insults, you are quite wrong.
You know, you are right. That was immature and I apologise unreservedly. I allowed you to needle me and quite lost my temper. It won't happen again.
You know, you are right. That was immature and I apologise unreservedly. I allowed you to needle me and quite lost my temper. It won't happen again.
I respect that. I too am human and do not claim to be 'blameless' in the unfortunate escalation of 'barbs'. I too apologize and will do my best to excise the 'offensive' content from my posts in future. Bottomline, you have your view, I have mine and they differ. It's not as if we're the first, nor likely the last, to take opposite sides on a 'debate' about Rommel's generalship.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
That said, I still stand by the accuracy of the information in my posts. On the assumption therefore that everything that has gone on recently was a series of debating ploys that spiralled out of control, what exactly do you consider erroneous ?
Ill see if I can elaborate and maybe clarify things for you.
That said, I still stand by the accuracy of the information in my posts. On the assumption therefore that everything that has gone on recently was a series of debating ploys that spiralled out of control, what exactly do you consider erroneous ?
Ill see if I can elaborate and maybe clarify things for you.
Well, I don't want to re-escalate the 'dark' side of our disagreement, however, from my perspective not "everything that has gone on recently" was a "series of debating ploys" from my perspective. My 'tone' perhaps might have changed, and not for the better, as things 'escalated'. However I still posted legitmate information and still dispute some of your statements. For instance:
You stated that the British units facing Rommel's first offensive were "untrained". Which unit(s) are you claiming were 'untrained'? You described the British defenses in Cyrenaica as having been 'denuded' of forces to be sent to Greece. Which forces in Cyrenaica for the British were sent to Greece? I'm not asking the question because I don't know, I'm asking for you to 'quantify' the term 'denuded', as you have used it. You also stated that Rommel received 'massive reinforcements' at one point - what exactly did those 'massive reinforcements' consist of? Again I am asking you to quantify what you mean by 'massive'. If you consider Rommel's reinforcements to have been 'massive', and the British received much larger reinforcments (in fact hundreds for the British compared to dozens for the Germans), then what term would you use for British reinforcements then? You also said Rommel had a 'huge advantage' in terms of quantity / quality of AFV's. Again I ask you for figures in order to clarify what you meant by 'huge advantage', because there was no point in time that Rommel enjoyed a numerical advantage on the order of that the British had at the Second Battle of El Alamein for example. You've also stated that for Rommel's first offensive the British were at the end of a long supply line, but the Axis were 'close' to their supply source (i.e. the reverse of the situation when the British launched their offensive against the Italians in Egypt). However, Axis supplies were coming from Tripoli, and the British held Tobruk. So again, I ask how far from Tripoli were the Axis forces that were advancing into Cyrenaica? How far were the British from Torbruk? The fact is that the Axis enjoyed no siginficant logistical advantage during Rommel's first offensive. In fact, as they advanced the Axis supply situation quickly became much worse than that of the British.
Regarding the issue of the intelligence coup enjoyed by Rommel, I'm not sure there's much more to say. You have characterized this as a 'unique' event. However, there were other points in time where Enigma provided the British with critical intel. For instance, at one point Rommel's forces were practically immobilized for want of fuel, due to intel gathered by the British that allowed them to sink practically all of the Axis shipping into Libya. The bottomline is that I believe you have consistently characterized the situation in the most favourable light for the Axis, and downplayed the advantages that the British had (be that intel, numbers of tanks or logistical position), in order to discount Rommel's accomplishments on the battlefield.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
I decided to jump back into this topic. I left this place sometime during the Wellesly-Napoleon discussion (I think) but now I see that the top hasn't changed. And I can't agree to that.
Suvorov, should, by himself, be better than Napoleon. The same would go for Suvorov and Hannibal. For, as Napoleon and Hannibal both lost several battles, Suvorov supposedly lost not one battle in the entirety of the wars he fought in.
I also propose that for any further changes to the list, the person in question qould have to be throughly compared to the person before (and the person after). This would mean that the two(three) are compared, their style of fighting, style of campaigns and the ingenuity that helped them win those battles. Also, when the two are compared, it would be easier to decide whether the person can go a step above or not.Thiswouldhelpavoid situationswhereitwouldbeevidentthatthepersoncouldbemadehigherbutitwouldbe unsure how much...
NB! Sorry for the typing in the last paragraphs. Something went wrong with the engine.
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