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Challenger2 View Drop Down
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top 100 Generals
    Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 11:37

I’m profoundly grateful for the responses by both Romano-Dacis and Carpathian Wolf, along with Deadkenny’s contribution and DSMyers1 admonition to my mildly provocative post. Had you all not reacted the way you did, I’d have been forced into the silence of embarrassment. Instead you’ve all graphically illustrated the point I’m about to make.

 

At no point was my intention either to go off topic, indulge in an anti fascist “Holocaust rant” [there are plenty of those already throughout the net], or decry Romania and Romanians in general. My intention was to demonstrate the quagmire of nationalist historiography that pollutes the history of the Balkan region.

 

One of you palmed off the issue by stating “it was the Croats; not us, you got it wrong!”, another “this is all anti-Romanian soviet propaganda, Jews were never persecuted in Romania!”, another “the Nazis took over and did it in Hungary so, by implication they must have done the same in Romania!”

 

All of you are correct from your own perspective; your education and research clearly brings you to the conclusions you draw. I have no reason to doubt either your honesty or integrity.

 

Allow me to quote from the following works published in America, “outsiders’ views” if you like.

 

“No country, with the exception of Germany, was involved in massacres of Jews on such a large scale. There were also instances when the Germans actually had to step in to restrain and slow down the pace of the Romanian measures. At such times the Romanians were moving too fast for the German bureaucracy.”

 

Raul Hilberg, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” New York: Holmes and Meier, 1985.

 

“The government, headed by Ion Gigurtu, introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislature, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. Antonescu, who followed Gigurtu as leader of the nation, created the Legionare state in coalition with the Iron Guard. They expanded on the laws passed by Gigurtu.  During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions, all sharply anti-Semitic, were published in the Official Gazette (Monitorul Oficial). Among other things, these laws forbade Jews:

access to higher education, the right to hold pubic office, the possession of radios, and the right to practice legal or artistic professions. Many professional organizations excluded Jews from membership. They included: the Bucharest Bar, the Romanian Opera, the Society of Romanian Writers, and the General Assembly of Dentists”

 

Randolph Braham, “The Tragedy of Romanian Jewry.” New York: Colombia University Press, 1994.

 

“…and go to the camps established at Tirgu Jiu. It is estimated that more than one thousand Jews died on these trains, suffocating to death.”

 

“Ion Antonescu declared about the Jews in Bessarabia and Bukovina: I am in favour of expelling the Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina on the other side of the border. There is nothing for them to do here and I don’t mind if we appear in history as barbarians. There has never been a more suitable time in our history to get rid of the Jews, and if necessary, you are to activate machine guns against them.”

“In Transnistria about 200 different labour and concentration camps were set up for Jews, throughout the 118 counties in the area. About a third of the Jews at these camps died of malnutrition, and the remaining ones were killed. Jews in these camps were killed without warning and in the most brutal matter. On October 16, 1942 for example, one hundred and fifty young women were told that they would travel to go work in German hospitals. They were brought to the forest, where they were raped and killed. Similar actions followed. The Antonescu regime, together with German troops, continued to torture Jews in Transnistria until August of 1944, even after the Soviet attack. Many others died in the effort to move Jews to regions further west, such as Bessarabia, Bukovina, and even Tirgu Jiu.

 

Avigdor Shachan, “Burning Ice.” New York: Colombia University Press, 1996.

 

These are internationally accepted accounts of events that happened [or not, depending on your perspective] in Romania less than 100 years ago. Now take into account several centuries of ethnic hatreds and violence, between Croat and Serb and Bosnian, and Wallachan and Hungarian and Bulgarian and Pole and German and Turk and Moldavian, and so on, each with their own take on events and their own agendas.

 

Was Stefan a great general or was he a minor average opportunistic guerrilla leader? I doubt we’ll ever get a clear picture. Certainly not based on Romanian sources alone.

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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 12:57
Since it appears that we are going to discuss this, in this thread:
 
Originally posted by Challenger2

...

One of you palmed off the issue by stating “it was the Croats; not us, you got it wrong!”, another “this is all anti-Romanian soviet propaganda, Jews were never persecuted in Romania!”, another “the Nazis took over and did it in Hungary so, by implication they must have done the same in Romania!”

 
Your 'paraphrasing' (btw double quotation marks are supposed to indicate a direct quote, which what you've written certainly is not) of what I said with respect to Hungary is a gross distortion.  First the context was that I was responding to what CW had said about the Jews of Hungary having been 'wiped out', in contrast to the situation in Rumania.  What I said did not, and was not, intended to absolve Hungary of their role in the Holocaust.  What I said was correct regarding the fact that the Hungarian regime did not deport the majority of Hungarian Jews until the Germans had taken over the country in March 1944.  However, Hungary had 'occupied' territories at the expense of Slovakia, Yugoslavia and Rumania, and did not necessarily consider Jews residing in those areas to be 'Hungarian'.  Thus the Hungarians did deport some Jews prior to the March 1944 'take over' of their country.  Also prior to the 'take over', the Hungarians passed 'anti-semitic laws' to parallel what the Germans had done in Germany.  Finally, even after the 'take over' of Hungary by the Germans, the Germans still found sympathetic Hungarians to collaborate with them in deportation of Hungarian Jews.  My comments were strictly limited to providing the context in which the destruction of the majority of the Jews of Hungary took place.  I said nothing whatsoever regarding Rumanian collaboration, simply that the Germans interferred with the selection of the Rumanian regime when they moved into the country.  One might also note that Vichy France collaborated in the deportation of Jews.  Are we then going to put 'France' and all of the French population in the same category, in spite of the origin of the Vichy regime? 


Edited by deadkenny - 24-Jul-2008 at 13:03
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 13:52
Hi DK,
 
Thank you for the grammar lesson. Big%20smile 
 

"At no point was my intention either to go off topic, indulge in an anti fascist 'Holocaust rant' [there are plenty of those already throughout the net], or decry Romania and Romanians in general. My intention was to demonstrate the quagmire of nationalist historiography that pollutes the history of the Balkan region."

 Is that better? Shall we get back on topic now?  

 

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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 14:09
Originally posted by Challenger2

Hi DK,
 
Thank you for the grammar lesson. Big%20smile 
 

"At no point was my intention either to go off topic, indulge in an anti fascist 'Holocaust rant' [there are plenty of those already throughout the net], or decry Romania and Romanians in general. My intention was to demonstrate the quagmire of nationalist historiography that pollutes the history of the Balkan region."

 Is that better? Shall we get back on topic now? 


The point is made, Challenger2.  We are all aware how much nationalism can influence the varying perceptions of history in different locations.  (Maybe you shoulda picked a less touchy topic with which to make the point, however Wink)


DeadKenny, don't worry about splitting hairs regarding semantics!  I wouldn't think you were condoning any part of the holocost or absolving anyone of responsibility for it, so I took what you said in that context.  Smile


Nationalism is present in history, and always will be.  Often there are no neutral, or even quasi-neutral sources present.  We do not know, when the sources differ greatly, which one is right or if the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  We must make do with what we have, and try not get in arguments with proponents of a differing viewpoint.  It ends up being personal opinion, which cannot really be argued over in these cases.

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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 15:04
Originally posted by DSMyers1

DeadKenny, don't worry about splitting hairs regarding semantics!  I wouldn't think you were condoning any part of the holocost or absolving anyone of responsibility for it, so I took what you said in that context.  Smile
 
I most certainly was not "splitting hairs regarding semantics".  First, Challenger2 used double quotation marks indicating a direct quote of what I had said.  Not only was it not a direct quotation, it wasn't even an accurate paraphrasing of what I had said. 
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote Romano-Dacis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Challenger2

I’m profoundly grateful for the responses by both Romano-Dacis and Carpathian Wolf, along with Deadkenny’s contribution and DSMyers1 admonition to my mildly provocative post. Had you all not reacted the way you did, I’d have been forced into the silence of embarrassment. Instead you’ve all graphically illustrated the point I’m about to make.

 

At no point was my intention either to go off topic, indulge in an anti fascist “Holocaust rant” [there are plenty of those already throughout the net], or decry Romania and Romanians in general. My intention was to demonstrate the quagmire of nationalist historiography that pollutes the history of the Balkan region.

 

One of you palmed off the issue by stating “it was the Croats; not us, you got it wrong!”, another “this is all anti-Romanian soviet propaganda, Jews were never persecuted in Romania!”, another “the Nazis took over and did it in Hungary so, by implication they must have done the same in Romania!”

 

All of you are correct from your own perspective; your education and research clearly brings you to the conclusions you draw. I have no reason to doubt either your honesty or integrity.

 
Please don't patronize me; you do it very poorly. I actually got my education in Canada, where I've lived since I was 6. However, I'm not so stupid as to believe every exaggerated figure which I read in a book without citations. Did the Romanians act against the Jews over the Prut? Absolutely! Was it entirely uprovoked? Absolutely not!
 
Capicho?

 

Allow me to quote from the following works published in America, “outsiders’ views” if you like.

 
By the way, let me provide you with some quotes:
"The only nation where the Jews of Hungary can find salvation is in Romania, but since the Romanian-Hungarian border is closely guarded by the Horthyist authorities, it is impossible for the Jews to escape."
-Geneva correspondance, 19 June, 1944, as quoted by Oliver Lustig, 1985.
 
"The order for the deportations, eventually affecting about 118,000 Jews from those regions, was given by Antonescu in September 1941, shortly after he assumed official responsibility for administering Transnistria. The order was explicit that the Jews were to be treated humanely and that abuses, including robbery, were punishable by death, and senior officers involved were required to sign a receipt of the orders specifying that they had read and understood them. None of this mattered in its execution [however]. The preparations had been abysmal or non-existent...
By the end of the year [1941] Antonescu had agreed to order no more mass deportations - there were still 30-50,000 Jews in those regions - as well as to an assistance program proposted by Filderman to which Jewish aid raised in Bucharest and abroad would be transmitted to the Jewish settlements in Transnistria under Anotnescus' protection and using the state administrative bodies... [the program] did not become fully functional until 1943, primarily due to corruption..."
-A History of Romania, Larry L. Watts, 1997.
 
As you can see, it was never the intent to eliminate the Jews, as you would demonize the Romanians, but it was a result of lack of perparation and overall corruption within the army.
 

“The government, headed by Ion Gigurtu, introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislature, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. Antonescu, who followed Gigurtu as leader of the nation, created the Legionare state in coalition with the Iron Guard. They expanded on the laws passed by Gigurtu.  During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions, all sharply anti-Semitic, were published in the Official Gazette (Monitorul Oficial). Among other things, these laws forbade Jews:

access to higher education, the right to hold pubic office, the possession of radios, and the right to practice legal or artistic professions. Many professional organizations excluded Jews from membership. They included: the Bucharest Bar, the Romanian Opera, the Society of Romanian Writers, and the General Assembly of Dentists”

 
Funny how your source doesn't mention the dismantling of the Iron Guard state months later. No, I guess that's left up to people with some skill in research to do, while others swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
 

Avigdor Shachan, “Burning Ice.” New York: Colombia University Press, 1996.

 
A book which sites no sources, or even makes an attempt at scholarly research. The only truthful aspect is that people died on the trains, but it was a tragic consequence of underpreparedness, not an attempt to kill people in cruel and unusual ways. We had better things to do with our trains during a war than send people on a sight-seeing death trip.
But let's just take a look at what the man himself, Antonescu, had to say about all this:
"The occasion of the evacuation of Bessarabia was truly a humiliation for the army, which was left to be insulted and attacked by Jews without reacting. That shame is compounded when soldiers, on their own initiative and often motivated only by the desire to plunder and abuse, attack the Jewish population and kill them in retaliation... Crimes of such nature constitute a shameful page for the entire people and they will be paid for later, by generations other than those that committed them. Those who contraveneor have already contravened, the above order will be placed in judgement and the severest sanctions of the law will be applied against them."
-Ion Antonescu, July 2, 1941
 
"that some Romanian troops on the territory east of the Dniester have engaged in thievery and acts of barbarism which place the army and the Romanian people in the saddest light..." He continues to inform that the commanding officers "will pay with the loss of their ranks and commissions for any tolerance or lack of authority over the units which they command. Anyone who is caught killing or beating the population or robbing it of its goods shall be executed without percy."
-Ion Antonescu, September, 1941
 
 
 
Sound like the words of a man who intended persecution against the Jews? Please, don't sound off on a topic on which you have at best "penguin-book" knowledge. Your wikipedia quotes only show the extent of your understanding of your historical situation. I doubt you've even read the aformentioned books. I have spent years of my own time researching Eastern European and Romanian history.
 
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

The annexation of Karaman and the resulting war against Uzun Hasan?
 
Hasan was defeated by the Ottomans before Stephen started his war, and after Stephen signed on, it was Hasan which sent him letters for alliance, and to help stimulate a crusade against the Ottomans, which Stephen attempted to do. Therefore, Stephen was much too slow to have been as much of an opportunist as you claim. He was also attacking Ottoman vassals long before Uzun Hasan attacked the Ottomans, since he took Chilia in 1465, a decade earlier than Hasan's main battles.
 
If a revolt in the principalities in the 1590s was a significant military concern to the Ottomans, let alone a threat to Istanbul, the government would have signed a truce with Austria (as it did on every occasion I'm aware of when the army was needed elsewhere) and diverted its resources to meet the new threat. The fact that they didn't, and that (according to you yourself) they instead reacted by negotiating a reduction in tribute
 
They negotiated the cancellation of all tribute, a very significant effect. Furthermore, Mihai's actions had almost the exact effects neccessary to label him a direct threat. The Ottomans withdrew their main army (led by Sinan Pasha) from Hungary as soon as they found out that Mihai was not stopping in Northern Bulgaria, and sent him together with another grand vizier against Mihai. As such, one could say the main battlefield of the long war shifted from Western Hungary to Bulgaria and Wallachia at that point. Therefore Mihai was considered a great threat, Q.E.D.
 
Besides the dubiousness of the casualty figures you claim, the fact that you also suggested Romanians were the inventors of mounted infantry and war wagons sets off alarm bells for me.
 
Never said they invented war waggons, however, they did successfully adopt them from the Hussite refugees. With regards to mounted infantry, no other army was as mobile as that of the Moldavians in the 15th century. They could even catch and encircle tatar raiders.


Edited by Romano-Dacis - 24-Jul-2008 at 19:11
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 19:17
The funny thing is i've lived in America since i was 7...so your claim Challenger falls flat on its face.
 
And it was the Croatians that were the most hardened supporters of Nazi Germany. The genocide they carried on the Serbs per ratio was the greatest.
 
But yea, penguin books, lol. Romano-Dacis got the rest. ;)
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 20:06
It looks like for Mihai, we know his opponents, where and when they fought, and some of the troop movements for the Ottomans.  We know the eventual outcome.  What is very difficult to know is the motivation behind what was done.  Did Mihai really scare the Ottomans?

Does that even matter?  The question is more whether he won the battles, won the campaigns, and won the peace.  It looks to me like he did.  Perhaps the Ottomans didn't consider him important enough to spend all their time on, since his war aims were limited and they could make peace with him.  Besides, the Austrians took care of him anyway!  Does the Ottomans making peace make him a worse general?
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 20:11

Mihai was assassinated, not beaten in battle.

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 20:23
The answer on if Mihai scared the Turks is no, he didn't. What really scared them was the Austrians who were winning and the Hungarians and slavs who were joining them. The very existance of the Ottoman Hungary was at stake. On the other hand Mihai never went beyond border towns on the Danube. Had his victories come in times of peace the answer would be different but since mostly second and third rate troops faced him it was obvious he wasn't the biggest problem in 1595-1600.
 
AL-Jassas 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 20:31
Actually it's been repeated many times and shown that Mihai wasn't very far away from Constantinople.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 20:39
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Mihai was assassinated, not beaten in battle.


Austrian instigated--that's what I meant when I said Austria took care of him.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 21:01
Quote whatever you want from Romanian chronicles, the farthest the guy ever got to was Nicopole, end of story.
 
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  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 02:17

Originally posted by Romano-Dacis

Hasan was defeated by the Ottomans before Stephen started his war, and after Stephen signed on, it was Hasan which sent him letters for alliance, and to help stimulate a crusade against the Ottomans, which Stephen attempted to do. Therefore, Stephen was much too slow to have been as much of an opportunist as you claim. He was also attacking Ottoman vassals long before Uzun Hasan attacked the Ottomans, since he took Chilia in 1465, a decade earlier than Hasan's main battles.

The confrontation with Uzun Hasan started with the tension over Trebizond (1461), came to a head after the Ottomans annexed Karaman, and ended with Hasan's defeat in 1474. So, did Stefan start before this, was he allied with Hasan, or did he come along afterwards (all of which you stated within one paragraph)?

Originally posted by Romano-Dacis

They negotiated the cancellation of all tribute, a very significant effect.

"Cancellation" is not what I remember you saying earlier, but regardless ... the Ottomans regularly offered rebellious vassals and governors extensive benefits in exchange for peace, so they could deal with more significant enemies. This was fairly normal practice.

Originally posted by Romano-Dacis

no other army was as mobile as that of Moldavians in the 15th century

Again, you make very bold and unqualified claims about an army that somehow, despite its unmatched effectiveness, managed to avoid the temptation of ever launching an offensive against its constant but bumbling nemesis. I'm not saying that Mihai was a bad general, but we're looking for the best generals here, and if his greatest accomplishment was that he stopped paying tribute to the Ottomans (at the cost of the occupation of his capital), then I really don't think he qualifies.

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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 02:26
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Quote whatever you want from Romanian chronicles, the farthest the guy ever got to was Nicopole, end of story.
 
AL-Jassas
 
There weren't any quoted concerning the manner I don't think.
 
Funny that we should disregard the accomplishments of Mihai and Stefan even though there is ample proof of their victories and effects yet we are to believe right away the caliph fairy tales of khalid right away.
 
Clap
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 02:34
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by Romano-Dacis

no other army was as mobile as that of Moldavians in the 15th century

Again, you make very bold and unqualified claims about an army that somehow, despite its unmatched effectiveness, managed to avoid the temptation of ever launching an offensive against its constant but bumbling nemesis. I'm not saying that Mihai was a bad general, but we're looking for the best generals here, and if his greatest accomplishment was that he stopped paying tribute to the Ottomans (at the cost of the occupation of his capital), then I really don't think he qualifies.



15th century?  He's referring to the army of Stefan cel Mare, there, not that of Mihai (which was significantly inferior to that of Stefan in relative terms).
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 02:37
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Funny that we should disregard the accomplishments of Mihai and Stefan even though there is ample proof of their victories and effects yet we are to believe right away the caliph fairy tales of khalid right away.


LOL
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 03:57
I would have to say Belisarius I think he may have been one of the greatest generals of all time considering what he accomplished with the small amount of troops he had. 

Edited by Count Belisarius - 25-Jul-2008 at 03:58


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 04:00
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

I would have to say Belisarius I think he may have been one of the greatest generals of all time considering what he accomplished with the small amount of troops he had. 


That is why he is #9 on the latest list!
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 07:51

Say whatever you want to say and believe what ever you wish, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Iran were conquered in 10 years (either by Khalid and co. or by little green men with horns on their heads) and Mihai still got no further Nicopole, end of story.

Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 25-Jul-2008 at 07:53
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