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Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
    Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 06:01
Originally posted by R_AK47

Peace with terrorist orginizations like Hezbollah will never be possible until they (the terrorists) no longer exist.  That is my opinion
 
I really cannot think of Israel in a better view of Hezbollah if it is not even worse. This is not due to some propogandas, but to the undisputed human rights report that clearly marks the numerous violation Israel committed that even exceeded the line of human rights violations in all aspects. Simply, subtitute Israel name with (country X) and you cannot conclude from this except it must be a "terrorist" state this time!
 
"The real, unstated reason for Israels attack on the airport may be precisely to impose a cost on Lebanese civilians to encourage them to press their government to rein in Hezbollah. Leaving aside the question of whether the Lebanese government is militarily capable of reining in Hezbollah, it is illegal under international humanitarian law, as noted below, to use military force to squeeze the civilian population, to enhance its suffering or to undermine its morale, regardless of the ultimate purpose. Under these circumstances, the attack on the Beirut airport does not appear to have been legitimate under the standards of international humanitarian law"
 
 
"Meanwhile, the military effect of targeting electrical facilities serving the civilian population often can be achieved in more focused ways, such as by attacking military facilities themselves or the portion of an electrical grid directly serving a military facility. Although final judgment must await a more detailed on-the-ground investigation, Israel faces a very high burden to justify these attacks.  "
 
 
"What constitutes an effective warning will depend on the circumstances. Such an assessment would take into account the timing of the warning and the ability of the civilians to leave the area. In some cases the IDF are reported to have dropped leaflets giving residents only two hours warning before a threatened attack. Bomb damage to roads and bridges, as well as air attacks on civilian vehicles, would also affect the ability of civilians to flee an expected attack. "
 
 
"However, because the bomblets released by cluster bombs have a wide dispersal pattern, they cannot be targeted precisely. As a result, they are not capable of discriminating between military and civilian objects when used in or near populated areas. In addition, cluster bomblets have a high initial failure rate the munitions used by Israel in Lebanon have a dud rate of 14 percent which results in numerous explosive duds scattered about the landscape; these pose similar risks to civilians as antipersonnel landmines."
 
Are attacks on humanitarian convoys unlawful?  
 
"Israeli air strikes have hit humanitarian aid vehicles, such as a July 18 attack that hit a convoy of the Red Crescent Society of the United Arab Emirates, destroying a vehicle carrying medicines, vegetable oil, sugar and rice, and killing the driver, and an attack on July 23, which hit two clearly marked Red Cross ambulances in the village of Qana. Human Rights Watch researchers also report the hitting of a civil defense building in Tyre, on July 16, as well as three neighboring eight- to 10-storey apartment buildings that, according to residents, were mostly occupied by teachers and doctors from the nearby hospital. Twenty-one people are believed to have been killed in the airstrike, and more than 50 wounded."
 
Read Human Watch report regarding the conflict in details:


Edited by ok ge - 15-Aug-2006 at 06:04
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 06:27
Can anyone explain to me how Hezbolla can say all this killing , destuction  was a victory and they kept Israel out of invadeing lebanon ,when Isreal wasn`t invadeing there in the frist place! Hezbolla started this war by kidnapping and shooting rockets into Isreal,   I mean who was invadeing who? Now they are back where they started with such waste of lives and destuction,where is the victory?
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 06:49
Its seems to me that if Hezbolla wanted to start a war  they would  have worned  the uniforms they paraded in and came out fighting like men instead of hiding behind the civilians ,and were only known by if they were carrying a gun. It s just sad because the UN said more children were killed in this war. This war was really not war but a act of terrorism, by killing their own and innocents on both sides just to get favortism and support. 
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 06:52
Originally posted by docyabut

Can anyone explain to me how Hezbolla can say all this killing , destuction  was a victory and they kept Israel out of invadeing lebanon ,when Isreal wasn`t invadeing there in the frist place! Hezbolla started this war by kidnapping and shooting rockets into Isreal,   I mean who was invadeing who? Now they are back where they started with such waste of lives and destuction,where is the victory?
 
Actually Hezbollah abducting the soldiers is very disputable. If you believe in human right reports:
 
Was Hezbollah's capture of Israeli soldiers lawful?  
 
The targeting and capture of enemy soldiers is allowed under international humanitarian law. However, captured combatants must in all circumstances be treated humanely.  
 
Hezbollah leader Hassan Nassrallah has stated that the captured soldiers will be used to negotiate the release of Palestinian, Lebanese and other Arab prisoners from Israel. The use of captives who are no longer involved in the conflict for this purpose constitutes hostage-taking. Hostage-taking as part of an armed conflict is strictly forbidden under international law, by both Common Article 3 and customary international law, and is a war crime.  
Regarding Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel, you know and I know that Hezbollah started firing them after Israel started the campaign by bombing civilian infrastructure from apartment buildings, Beirut airport, bridges, roads. That is following the chain of reaction.
 
Hezbollah claiming victory is as disputalbe too as Israel claiming victory too. Israel has not achieved any of its announced objectives so far they announced which is actually expected to hurt Olmert's political stand. The conflict is not over yet. The following days will reveal the victorious party. Would Hezbollah be diarmed in the following, thus acheiving one goal of the Israeli campaign? Would Hezbollah be left armed and start negotiating for prisoners swap, thus, not only halting Israel attack, by bouncing Israel back to the original point the conflict started with? Time will tell.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 07:34
Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???
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Posts: 527 		  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 08:59
 cok  qoute -Regarding Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel, you know and I know that Hezbollah started firing them after Israel started the campaign by bombing civilian infrastructure from apartment buildings, Beirut airport, bridges, roads. That is following the chain of reaction.
 
 You have your sources wrong Bush Putain ect. and even the Arabs leaders said hezbollah started this war, not only by  the kidnapping but firing rockets into Israel frist.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:28
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???
 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
 
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:32
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???








Edited by Leonidas - 15-Aug-2006 at 09:40
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:48
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means???
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 09:49
make my point?
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:02
Originally posted by malizai_

 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
 
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
 
 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 


Edited by R_AK47 - 15-Aug-2006 at 20:06
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:17
Originally posted by R_AK47

 
Originally posted by malizai_

 
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is an terrist organization! Do you know what teror means?
 
That is rich, coming from someone who takes G Bush as his moral authority.LOL
 
Let me explain something a lot of CNN/Fox news audience dont understand. Just because the US calls someone a terrorist, communist, anti-freedom blah de blah de blah or whatever, actually doesnt make them so. However US does have a pretty long and powerfull stick with which pretty much everyone falls in line and says: what ever you say boss. So if the big boss says a cat is dog, then it is a dog. That is what u can do if u r a superpower. It would be naive to think of unipolar views in the US media as the only view.
 
//All that i have written is protected by the first ammendment//LOL
 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 
 
 
 
whatever, we have all seen who did what and who failed. I wouldnt try to change what is obvious to u, since it stems from sensory overload. Vitamin B6 and potassium supplements are advised.


Edited by malizai_ - 15-Aug-2006 at 10:19
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:31
Originally posted by R_AK47

 
Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure.  All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel.  Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians.  Israel was forced to do what it did. 
 
Just a rhetorical question if I may:
 
Madrid and London has been attacked by groups of local terrorists. They are obviously there.

According to your logic, Israel is forced to give Spain and England the same treatment as they gave Libanon?
 
 


Edited by Northman - 15-Aug-2006 at 10:32
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 10:52
Originally posted by Northman

Originally posted by R_AK47


Hezbollah is obviously a terrorist organization, any attempt to label them otherwise will end in failure. All of the death and destruction that took place in Lebanon is the fault of Hezbollah, not Israel. Hezbollah started the war and after it began, hid like cowards behind Lebanese civilians. Israel was forced to do what it did.


Just arhetorical question if I may:


Madrid andLondonhas beenattacked by groups of local terrorists. They are obviouslythere.According to your logic,Israelis forced to give Spain and Englandthe same treatment as they gave Libanon?



Please excuse my inferior mind but to me what you just said made absolutely no sense. Why would Israel attack Spain and England for being attacked by terroirsts. And these were not local they worked for the name of Al-Queda. Terrorist cells being called up to raise arms against the infidels and such.
    
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Posts: 1098 		  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 12:39

My assesment of the Latest War in the Mid-East

Hezbollah, Lebanon, Iran, Syria

Massive Damage, but Hezbollah not Defeated:

The Lebanese country has been destroyed, over 1000 civilians killed, infrastructure damaged to critical levels, economy has been destroyed, environmental damage that will last for over a decade, but the idea of Hezbollah remains stronger than ever.

Strength:

The government of Lebanon will now probably officially curb Lebanon's autonomy in their country but unoficially give their irrevocable support as they now know it is a vital part of their nation's defense. Hezbollah will probably integrate better into the military and they will now begin to fortify their positions in the country.

Iran, Syria, and Lebanon's ties will undoubtedly grow stronger. Muslim world opinion & view of Israel and the US have taken a serious blow, wich favors Hezbollah, Iran, and even Al-Qaeda.

Israel and the US:

Damage & Defeat:

Israel and the US's goal to alienate Hezbollah's support among the Lebanese has failed, and Hezbollah is even more etched in the minds of people in Lebanon.

Israel has been damaged, minor damage to its infrastructure, minimal damage to it's economy, and unknown damage to Olmert's trust among his piers.

Benefits:

They have successfully gauged Lebanon's ground defense and can plan ahead now on how to destroy them. They knew that their current tactics, if left to continue would eventually hurt their economy, so they stopped before the damage on their economy could take place. Very smart move for Isreal. Since the damage to their infrastructure and economy were minimal, they can now invest in more spies & counter intelligence on the ground, which will be a big factor of any ground offensive in the future.

This war has helped the US and Israel find the money trail, which they will say leads directly to Iran and Syria (whether there are more countries involved or not). Iran specifically, where the US and their allies will most likely use this war to signify how Iran poses a threat to security in the region.

Their government stenographers (CNN, Fox News, NY Times, USA Today, etc) will continue to vilify Hezbollah and their supporters for supporting terror and could scare their public in supporting any offensive attack (ie. bombing Iran's nuclear energy site, or other areas, possibly Syria as well) by Israel, or the US.


Psuedo-Ceasefire

The ceasefire was not implemented by the UN, rather it was implemented by Israel, who is holding all the cards.

This ceasefire is not on solid grounds, and the situation can change any minute. While there is a ceasefire, it will not stop Israel or the US from bombing Iran or Syria if they wanted to, and UN peacekeepers could not stop Israel from attacking Lebanon again if it wanted to. This ceasefire could be great cover for Israeli spies to enter Lebanon and further their plans in the region.

Final Thoughts:

Its a victory for Hezbollah, but at massive costs to the Lebanese country and infrastructure.

Its a defeat for Isreal, but a successful gauge on Hezbollah's defenses. Furthermore it's a successful and blatanly bloody warning/reminder to all Arab countries who would think of challenging Isreal.



Edited by Afghanan - 15-Aug-2006 at 12:44
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 16:37
Originally posted by docyabut

  You have your sources wrong Bush Putain ect. and even the Arabs leaders said hezbollah started this war, not only by  the kidnapping but firing rockets into Israel frist.
 
The Katyusha rockets fired on the kidnapping event were not intended to hit civilian targets more than provide a distracting coverage of the kindnapping plan which worked.
I don't think im debating here who started the war. Does it matter? Israel and Hezbollah are on constant war and if Hezbollah decided that best way to recover Lebanese prisoners by kidnapping Israeli soldiers, then that is a mere military decision. I cannot honestly think of it except an act of war, but again, they are both on a constant war.
Some Arabs leaders occused Hezbollah of taking high risks, and some Jewish big thinkers accused Israel of planting the the operation earlier and the kindapping was an excuse, such as the well known thinker Naom Chomsky. You can find opposing sides to the group tactics in both inside Hezbollah and Israel and inside the Arab world, and the Jews worldwide. It is of no use to the conflict to know that an Arab thinker or leader opposes Hezbollah, as much as a Jewish thinker or leader oppossing Israel.
Targetting cities indifferently which is an indiscrimenate bombardment of civilians targets that Hezbollah has opporated on Israeli cities and settlements has not been put into use except after warning Israel multiple times to stop its indiscriminate strikes on Lebanese civilian targets. We know that both have done the same violation of human right.
I dont have any problem for Israel to target Hezbollah relentlessly because that is what constitutes an arm conflict, but for Israel to cowardly make excuses for its intentional bombing of civilian infrastructure, ambalances, electric and gas stations, roads, UN posts..etc is unnecessarly and does not differenciate Israel from any terrorist group. In fact, Human Watch report on the conflict has clearly pointed the finger on Israel and stated:
 
"The real, unstated reason for Israels attack on the airport may be precisely to impose a cost on Lebanese civilians to encourage them to press their government to rein in Hezbollah. "
 
"Indeed, the logic of attacking civilian morale opens the door to deliberately attacking civilians and civilian objects themselves in short, to terrorism. In addition, international humanitarian law explicitly prohibits attacks of which the primary purpose is to intimidate or instill terror in the civilian population. "
 
That is exactly what Israel has done to Jordan in 1970's to collectively punish and  push Jordanians to kick out the PLO. Strikingly, Israel attacked Amman's airport in the same manner and other civilian targets. The policy Israel adopted here is of extreme similarity. The only difference that the results are different where the Israeli outcomes of using this strategy is actually negative this time.
 
P.S: Putain ect? What do you mean by Putain? I would like you to clarify that, since Putain in french is simply a "bitch" or a "protistute". Something a person of low life can only use this meaning in this forum. Anyhow, you should know too that in communicating to forumers on your posts, you ought to use English only even in a good-faith talk.


Edited by ok ge - 15-Aug-2006 at 16:43
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 16:49
Originally posted by malizai_

 Vitamin B6 and potassium supplements are advised.
 
LOL
 
Originally posted by Afghanan

The ceasefire was not implemented by the UN, rather it was implemented by Israel, who is holding all the cards.
 
Very true.
 
Is this your opinion Afghanan? Or from a different source? Im just curious.
If it is yours, Im surprised how organized your own posted article.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 17:21
 
 
 
 
 
Hezbollah is a terorist organization! You could show your photos and i could mines but everytime İsrael had fight to defend her self.(1948-1956-1967-1973 and now)


Edited by erkut - 15-Aug-2006 at 17:27
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:09
Hezbollah is a terorist organization! You could show your photos and i could mines but everytime İsrael had fight to defend her self.(1948-1956-1967-1973 and now)
 
Hezbollah didn't come out to this world except in 1982. What is the relationshop of 1948-56-67-73?
 
Also, assuming the sad pictures you presented (which combines different eras) are a proof that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, can we say that the photos he presented of Israel attack on civilians (though he presented only those of Lebanon, leaving 50 years of compiled evidance) is a proof that Israel is also a terrorist state?
 
I doubt you have that objectivity.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:09
Yes maybe İsrael is a terorist too. And even you can define her ass a monster but who had created this monster? Since 1948 Araps attacking to İsrael again and again, non-stop. Every jewish family has a victim of teror or war. İf you keep attack to a country more than 50 years and if this country is small peopels could be mad!
İn 1948 there was a perfect solution for peace; İsrael and Palastin were two free country and Jerusalem was international city. But Araps started a war and they lose it, than  they started an other war and they lose it again. Again and again they keep attaked to İsrael. So could you tell me who created this monster?Or who is the real monster?
 
P.S: İ am sorry for war and Lebnanese deaths but there are jews dieing to. And objectively Jews are deffending themselves.


Edited by erkut - 15-Aug-2006 at 18:12
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