QuoteReplyTopic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 09:09
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Most Israeli's are from Eastern Europe. They are the decendents of Khazar converts. No relation to the bunni Israel (who are most likely the palestinians).
Sorry Omar, here you are completely wrong.
Virtually all Eastern European Jews , the Ashkenazi, are the descendants of Western and Central European Jewish people who during the Middle Ages, having been expelled, migrated further East, to Poland and today's Russia, both countries that were then far more tolerant than the rest of Europe.
That the remnants of the Khazar Jews might have contributed to the Eastern European Jewish gene-pool on a small scale, is possible, but so far has not been proven. By the time large scale immigration from the West arrived, the Khazars were long gone.
Excellent. Now that a precedent has been set, let other people get back their old homeland. Hmmm alot of Pakistanis have ansestors from central asia, lets send XI Corps to "reclaim" our old "homeland". vast open spaces, a place with a predictable climate, good women etc. And the present occupants? Ah they are all Russians anyways.
Nobody has bothered explaining here why someone should get a piece of real estate that they supposedly occupied 2000 years ago. Simply because there is no justification. There never was.
Omar, please never let facts get in the way of realpolitic.
Anyways, the present ceasefire is untennable, its giving Israel through diplomacy what it could not earn on the battlefield i.e a Hizb withrawl. History shows that to be a bad idea.
Good advice, might is right.
Originally posted by Sparten
Nobody has bothered explaining here why someone should get a piece of real estate that they supposedly occupied 2000 years ago. Simply because there is no justification. There never was.
The silence is because it was the crime of the century (last century). The biggest real estate scam in history. The other one is oil.
The silence is because it was the crime of the century (last century). The biggest real estate scam in history. The other one is oil.
Don't blow this out of all proportions.
The worst crime last century was the industrialised genocide of six Million Jewish people, and a further few Million Roma and Sinti, Slavic People, Homosexuals etc. by Nazi-Germany.
And compared to the enterprise of European colonisation, especially in the Americas, the Jewish settlement in Palestine is a mere Sunday School Picnic. The US Americans or Spanish ( and all the other ones) could tell the Jews a thing or two about real estate scams.
The silence is because it was the crime of the century (last century). The biggest real estate scam in history. The other one is oil.
Don't blow this out of all proportions.
The worst crime last century was the industrialised genocide of six Million Jewish people, and a further few Million Roma and Sinti, Slavic People, Homosexuals etc. by Nazi-Germany.
And compared to the enterprise of European colonisation, especially in the Americas, the Jewish settlement in Palestine is a mere Sunday School Picnic. The US Americans or Spanish ( and all the other ones) could tell the Jews a thing or two about real estate scams.
Those responsible for that crime have paid, it's not for the Palestinians to suffer for what the jews endured during TrdRch. Do you think that gays have the right to attack straights only because they were killed by some nazis?
What's this proportion about? Do you have a referencial system to measure human suffering? Maybe even a benchmarking. What's the point from where suffering is to be considered significant? You have three kids.
How many of them should be punished or killed for what the nazis did to the jews?
Israel is wrong, that's the point. It certainly doesn't mean that all those against them are right. Some are better some are worse. It's not about Israel against terrorists, it's about Israel terrorising. I thought of that state as being create to provide a haven for the jews not to turn it into a non-jew killing ground.
And that real estate thing. Maybe Romania should attack Montenegro because we were invaded by the turks int the 14th century. China should start bombing Vietnam because they were invaded by the Japanese. And UK should attack Portugal because they were at war with Adolf Hitler.
I'm beginning to think that Israelis have no will of getting things to work peacefully. They hide behind their nukes and abuse of their past. I'm sorry but it really looks like they're digging their own grave.
They have dug their own grave. Its only a matter of time, as soon as the US stops/cannot support Israel anymore, they will eirther have to fit in, or its curtains for them.]
Sunday School picnic? The mass expulsion of a people from their homeland, you call that a picnic. Sir.
My flippant remark was made to counter Malizai's hyperbolic statement that said that the Jewish settlement in Palestine was the worst crime last century, and the worst "real estate scam" in history. Which, quite clearly, neither is.
Compared to other conflicts of the 20th century, and I'm not talking about the two WWs, the Palestine conflict is a realitively minor affair. There have been numerous wars and Civil wars that in extent of military casualties and civilian suffering have been far worse than Palestine. Or still are, the ongoing conflicts in the Sudan/Darfur region or in the Congo are in terms of human, cultural and economic costs far more terrible than the the Palestine war.
But, of course, they are conveniently forgotten or put on the back burner.
The Palestine conflict only gets its prominent treatment, because it happens on the frontline of a far more important conflict, it is the cause celebre of first a post-colonial struggle ,and now that of an ideological one between an American led economic neo-imperialism and its enemies that have chosen fundamentalist Islam as their ideology. And that is the main reason, the whole Mid-East gets up in (verbal) arms about it.
Does anybody still care. in the Muslim world or otherwise, about the fate of the people of the Western Sahara (Sahrwawi Democratic Republic) that were driven off their ancestral land by Moroccan settlers in the 1990s and are now rotting away in their hundreds of thousands in refuge camps in the Algerian desert? Of course not.
They are only Muslims chased away by other Muslims from their homeland, and nobody can construct a world conflict out of that.
As unexcusable the Israeli policies towards the Palestinian people are and have been, and as important it is to critise Israel over this, I want to see the same people who have now adopted the fate of the Palestinians as their cause, to critise the Islamic states that have practised mass expulsion of population, military agression and genocide and still are.
Until then, I understand all verbal attacks on Israel by its Islamic enemies as hypocritical propaganda. The Palestinians have all the right to accuse Israel of all sorts of human rights contraventions. But all the other states that support them with propaganda or militarily equipment? I don't think so.....
Israel must be criticised for the suffering it has caused to the Palestinian people, but it is by far not the only and the worst country.
Criticise the Sudanese government too, who is responsible for the death of 2.2 million non-Muslims in its Southern provinces. And so on....
Then I would far more convinced by all this emotional hyperbole.
In the meantime, let's all hope the ceasefire will hold, and that at one point in the future, sanity will prevail, and they will come to some kind of peace-agreement.
So Komnenos, let's just start a thread about every wrongdoing.
This thread as far as I'm concerned is about the current situation created by Israel in Lebannon. And that's the whole and single issue. It's not about Sudan, Morocco, Sahara or whatever. What happens ther is not that it isn't happening here.
I will rephrase my statement again: It's not that others are right or wrong, it's just that Israel is wrong.
It's not about those who attacked Israel it's about what Israel has done.
If you are wrong then you are wrong and that's all. Try this:
I am jaywalking.
You are jaywalking
A policeman stops you and he prepares to ... punish you.
You defend yourself by saying that you saw me and that I deserve at least a likewise punishment.
The policeman replys that he didn'n saw me and that it's not about you and me it's about you breaking the law and he upholding it.
Does a crime justifies another crime?
"Your honour, I did killed that guy but if you take a look at these DNA graphs you would realize that I was justified since some 5000 years ago one of my ancestors was killed by one of his."
"Ok, but his son will kill your's"
"No, your honor, that's not gonna happen, I have a daughter. It's more likely that one of his nephews will kill one of mine but when that will happen I will be 2 m down and that whole thing be the troble of your nephew."
"Really?"
"Yes, your honour, unless, of course, I consider your rule of being unfair and then a new genealogical tree of murders will start up."
"With me?"
"No, I've thought of your brother in law, it's always better to make sure that there's diversity in the gene pool."
Don't you think if they were alive, they are more valuable to Israel?
Hence, increasing Hezbollah's return in case of a prisoners swap.
I think, that it will be very interesting if they are alive, because their capture was the formal occasion for the war. I want to watch the interview with them after the swap of the captives.
Sunday School picnic? The mass expulsion of a people from their homeland, you call that a picnic. Sir.
My flippant remark was made to counter Malia's hyperbolic statement that said that the Jewish settlement in Palestine was the worst crime last century, and the worst "real estate scam" in history. Which, quite clearly, neither is.
Compared to other conflicts of the 20th century, and I'm not talking about the two WWs, the Palestine conflict is a realitively minor affair. There have been numerous wars and Civil wars that in extent of military casualties and civilian suffering have been far worse than Palestine. Or still are, the ongoing conflicts in the Sudan/Darfur region or in the Congo are in terms of human, cultural and economic costs far more terrible than the the Palestine war.
But, of course, they are conveniently forgotten or put on the back burner.
The Palestine conflict only gets its prominent treatment, because it happens on the frontline of a far more important conflict, it is the cause celebre of first a post-colonial struggle ,and now that of an ideological one between an American led economic neo-imperialism and its enemies that have chosen fundamentalist Islam as their ideology. And that is the main reason, the whole Mid-East gets up in (verbal) arms about it.
Does anybody still care. in the Muslim world or otherwise, about the fate of the people of the Western Sahara (Sahrwawi Democratic Republic) that were driven off their ancestral land by Moroccan settlers in the 1990s and are now rotting away in their hundreds of thousands in refuge camps in the Algerian desert? Of course not.
They are only Muslims chased away by other Muslims from their homeland, and nobody can construct a world conflict out of that.
As unexcusable the Israeli policies towards the Palestinian people are and have been, and as important it is to critise Israel over this, I want to see the same people who have now adopted the fate of the Palestinians as their cause, to critise the Islamic states that have practised mass expulsion of population, military agression and genocide and still are.
Until then, I understand all verbal attacks on Israel by its Islamic enemies as hypocritical propaganda. The Palestinians have all the right to accuse Israel of all sorts of human rights contraventions. But all the other states that support them with propaganda or militarily equipment? I don't think so.....
Israel must be criticised for the suffering it has caused to the Palestinian people, but it is by far not the only and the worst country.
Criticise the Sudanese government too, who is responsible for the death of 2.2 million non-Muslims in its Southern provinces. And so on....
Then I would far more convinced by all this emotional hyperbole.
In the meantime, let's all hope the ceasefire will hold, and that at one point in the future, sanity will prevail, and they will come to some kind of peace-agreement.
I am not comparing genocides, it would not be ethical to do so. Infact it would be outright insensitive to do so . All other wars are not the concern here, it is the "crime" of the century in respect to realestate. And i place emphasis on the word "scam", for that is how palestenian land was negotiated. People-A's land was negotiated/sold to People-B by People-C. People-B and C did that without consent of People-A. Now that is a scam!!!!!!!
People-A tried the courts, which were coincidentally run by People-C. People-C couldnt care less and told them to be patient and to try to learn to live with it. People-A said NO! and tried to get their land back for themselves, invoking everybody from satan to God to help them, for they knew People-C were in it with People-B. Sudan is a place far far way from where People-A live.
They have dug their own grave. Its only a matter of time, as soon as the US stops/cannot support Israel anymore, they will eirther have to fit in, or its curtains for them.]
Sad, every israeli I have met was a great guy.
The USA will always support Israel and will always have the resources to continue to support Israel.
With so much hopes for the fragile truce, it does not look so promising so far.
Israel has claimed killing four Hezbollah fighters or "armed men" who approached them and they felt them "unsafe", therefor, firing the first bullets after the truce came in effect. Today, 10 rockets fired and hit near Israeli forces in occupied part of southern Lebanon. Both parties warn that they will respond to any firing. Can we say then Hezbollah is responding or attacking? What is your view and expecation to this truce?
Fragile truce holding in Lebanon
Hezbollah supporters have been celebrating victory
The truce between Israel and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah remains intact despite sporadic violence in southern Lebanon.
Israel's army said Hezbollah fired several mortars overnight but it did not respond as none landed over the border and no-one was injured.
Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert defended his leadership, saying Hezbollah had been dealt a harsh blow.
But Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is claiming a historic victory.
Wider political recriminations are also taking the place of violence on the ground, with the presidents of the US and Iran blaming each other for fuelling the conflict.
President George W Bush accused Iran of backing armed groups in Lebanon and Iraq "in the hope of stopping democracy from taking hold".
Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad blamed Washington for providing Israel with weapons which he said had been used to target women and children in Lebanon.
Since the ceasefire began on Monday morning, thousands of Lebanese refugees have been surging back to their homes.
The International Red Cross has warned that the country's humanitarian needs remain urgent.
Fragile truce
Israeli military sources say that between five and 10 mortars were fired southwards on Monday night and early on Tuesday morning.
IMPACT: 34 DAYS OF FIGHTING
Lebanon deaths: About 1,000 - mostly civilians No precise data on Hezbollah dead Israeli deaths: Soldiers: 114 (IDF) Civilians: 43 (IDF) Lebanon displaced: 700,000 - 900,000 (UNHCR; Lebanese govt) Israeli displaced: 500,000 (Human Rights Watch) Lebanon damage: $2.5bn (Lebanese govt) Israel damage: $1.1bn (Israeli govt)
The Israeli military has said repeatedly that it wants the ceasefire to succeed and it is playing down this incident, says the BBC's Rob Norris in Jerusalem.
Earlier, Israeli troops clashed with Hezbollah fighters several times across southern Lebanon, killing at least one guerrilla.
Hezbollah has always maintained that it will attack any Israeli forces in Lebanon even though it has also said that it will abide by the terms of the ceasefire.
The head of the United Nations peacekeeping force in Lebanon, Gen Alain Pellegrini, warned that any provocation could quickly escalate into a major confrontation between Israel and Hezbollah.
He appealed for international reinforcements to be sent as soon as possible to prevent the ceasefire from unravelling.
Israeli fury
Ehud Olmert told the Israeli parliament on Monday there had been shortcomings in the conduct of the war.
But he insisted it had changed the region's strategic balance, ending what he called Hezbollah's state-within-a-state in southern Lebanon.
HAVE YOUR SAY
With one side achieving its aims and the other not, peace will not last.
But his critics are angry that Israel has failed to crush Hezbollah as Mr Olmert had promised at the start of the campaign, our correspondent says.
They doubt that the group will ever actually give up its weapons and they worry that even if Hezbollah withdraws from southern Lebanon, it may still be able to fire long-range rockets from elsewhere.
Most of all, they are furious that the two captured Israeli soldiers still have not been released.
In an opinion poll of 500 Israelis by a leading Hebrew financial paper published on Monday night, more than half said the army had not achieved its aims in Lebanon.
The poll also suggested that support for Mr Olmert's Kadima party had dropped by a third.
Israeli political analysts say Mr Olmert's coalition government will probably survive for now, but mainly because no other coalition looks feasible at the moment.
Hezbollah celebrations
In an address broadcast on Hezbollah's television channel, Hassan Nasrallah said it was a great day for his movement which had, he said, achieved a victory against Israel that even big Arab armies had not managed in the past.
It was the wrong time, he added, for any discussion about disarming the movement - as laid down in the recent UN resolution.
Hassan Nasrallah spoke calmly and with modesty but his message was triumphant, the BBC's Kim Ghattas reports from Beirut.
As soon as the Hezbollah leader finished speaking celebratory gunfire broke out in Beirut.
Jubilant young men drove around the heart of the capital on motorbikes waving Hezbollah flags.
The leader of the guerrilla movement was also one step ahead of the Lebanese government, our correspondent notes.
He announced Hezbollah would start giving money as of Tuesday to internally displaced people to cover for one year's rent while they waited for their houses to be rebuilt.
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