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Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
    Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 23:31

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

*****

They didn't forget.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:00

Originally posted by Mila

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

*****

They didn't forget.

 
As Mila said, they have not forgotten.
 

 


Edited by Afghanan - 12-Aug-2006 at 00:02
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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:09
Well I stared a topic about this on antoehr forum and said that "Isreal can't just come in and and kick a country out and expect them to accept it" My freind had an interesting comment:

Sure you can, its called an invasion, what do you think England and the newly formed United States of America did to the Native Americans. Trail of Tears, The Mannhattan Trade, reservations, etc.
Our country was conceptually the same. We just were "nice" about it.
Shini wins this argument in one post.


He doesn't seem to think that this Debate could have gone on for 35 pages. What do you guys say?
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:15
Originally posted by DukeC

 
I don't hear anyone calling for the removal of the Palestinians, but removing the Israelis is a goal for many Palestinians and others. An all or nothing approach ends up in the mess we're in now. It also strengthens the Israeli right who can say any means is justified because the nations survival is at stake.
 
 
Israel's survival is always at stake, no doubt.  Most Arabs I have spoken to say that if Israel wants to exist the Palestinians will have to exist. 
 
The Israeli lobby have started a massive campaign to delegitamize and sell the concept that the Arabs in the region never had a state, therefore they don't have a right to live in that land.  The reality is for over a thousand years the land has been occupied by Arabic speaking Muslims, Christians, even Jews from all walks of life.  Israel is trying to change that in it's 50 year existence. 
 
Like I said earlier, Israel holds all the cards in their hands.  Right now the UN has called for a ceasefire and Israel knows they can't do anything to them, so they will continue with their campaign of carnage.
 
In a dirty war, you can't expect the participants to be clean either, especially the Israelis.
 


Edited by Afghanan - 12-Aug-2006 at 00:16
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:22
Originally posted by Red Russian

Well I stared a topic about this on antoehr forum and said that "Isreal can't just come in and and kick a country out and expect them to accept it" My freind had an interesting comment:

Sure you can, its called an invasion, what do you think England and the newly formed United States of America did to the Native Americans. Trail of Tears, The Mannhattan Trade, reservations, etc.
Our country was conceptually the same. We just were "nice" about it.
Shini wins this argument in one post.


He doesn't seem to think that this Debate could have gone on for 35 pages. What do you guys say?
 
Thats my belief as well.  The politics can be summed up in 3 words - MIGHT IS RIGHT.
 
I mean its very sad what European coloniziers did to the Native Americans, but history ofcourse is written by the winners.
 
Today we can make movies about their struggle, have Kevin Costner can pretend he's an Indian, and we can idolize them on our football and baseball helmets. 
 
As we idolize, most Native Americans live in concentration camps we call reservations, and if they even breath the word revolt, we'll wipe them out and nobody will skip a beat about it.
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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:35
Ah the sad truth.......
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 00:55
Originally posted by Afghanan

 
 
Israel's survival is always at stake, no doubt.  Most Arabs I have spoken to say that if Israel wants to exist the Palestinians will have to exist. 
 
The Israeli lobby have started a massive campaign to delegitamize and sell the concept that the Arabs in the region never had a state, therefore they don't have a right to live in that land.  The reality is for over a thousand years the land has been occupied by Arabic speaking Muslims, Christians, even Jews from all walks of life.  Israel is trying to change that in it's 50 year existence. 
 
Like I said earlier, Israel holds all the cards in their hands.  Right now the UN has called for a ceasefire and Israel knows they can't do anything to them, so they will continue with their campaign of carnage.
 
In a dirty war, you can't expect the participants to be clean either, especially the Israelis.
 
I agree with you fully about the Palestinians, they need a homeland and a future or Israel will never know peace. How to achieve that with the gordian knot that is politics in the region is anyones guess tho. The last Israeli leader that tried to make a lasting peace ended up dead at the hands of a countryman.
 
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 01:20
I hear so much of what's wrong with Israels position, I'd like to hear in clear terms(let's leave the history out of it for a moment) what you think should be done that will take into account the needs of everyone involved.
 
Does your solution include the existance of an Israeli state?

I have answered this question earlier on this thread.
The only possible solution that does not  involve the  destruction of Israel is this:
They let the Palestinians back to their homes (pre 48), they give them full citizenship and the vote, they dismantle the settlements, and neuter their army.

That way, the Jews stay in Palestine, and so do the palestinians. There is no other arrangement that will end the wars. Of that I am sure.

Now please answer my post.


EDIT: That really is an excellent picture Afghanan


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Aug-2006 at 01:24
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 01:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I hear so much of what's wrong with Israels position, I'd like to hear in clear terms(let's leave the history out of it for a moment) what you think should be done that will take into account the needs of everyone involved.
 
Does your solution include the existance of an Israeli state?

I have answered this question earlier on this thread.
The only possible solution that does not  involve the  destruction of Israel is this:
They let the Palestinians back to their homes (pre 48), they give them full citizenship and the vote, they dismantle the settlements, and neuter their army.

That way, the Jews stay in Palestine, and so do the palestinians. There is no other arrangement that will end the wars. Of that I am sure.

Now please answer my post.


EDIT: That really is an excellent picture Afghanan
 
"It doesn't have anything at all to do with viewpoint. You bombed serbia without questioning their 'right to exist'. You bombed Iraq without questioning their 'right to exist'. You bombed the Taliban without questioning their 'right to exist'. Why don't you be fair and bomb Israel too?"
 
Which part of your post, the part where I bombed everybody?
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 02:45
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


They let the Palestinians back to their homes (pre 48), they give them full citizenship and the vote, they dismantle the settlements, and neuter their army.

That way, the Jews stay in Palestine, and so do the palestinians. There is no other arrangement that will end the wars. Of that I am sure.


With all due respect, I do not think Arabs should return to Israel. The hate between Jews and Arabs is too strong for them to live side by side in one single state. If Arabs were to ever become a majority and gain the balance of power in their favor, a massacre against the Jewish people would be inevitable. I think seggregation is unavoidable for peace to work. Mixing two incompatible parties together would not work.

The best solution in my opinion would be for Israel to completely withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, which are to be handed to the Palestinian authorities. What's been lost in Israel proper has been lost already. Allowing Palestinians to return to those lands would require the uprooting of millions of Jews.

The key for peace is in the hands of Israel. It has to withdraw from the West Bank and dismanttle all illegal settlements on the the occupied territory. But of course this will never happen, Israel is after an expansionist policy and trying to swallow more and more land in the West Bank, in Syria and now in Lebanon. It is too greedy and eventually as I sad before it will choke. By escalating the situation Israel is simply precipitating its own end.


Edited by bg_turk - 12-Aug-2006 at 02:49
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 03:08

I'm not going to post in this thread any more it's just too sad. There's so many good people on both sides that get drowned out in all the noise it breaks my heart.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 03:26
The best solution in my opinion would be for Israel to completely withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, which are to be handed to the Palestinian authorities. What's been lost in Israel proper has been lost already. Allowing Palestinians to return to those lands would require the uprooting of millions of Jews.
I don't think that would work either. Palestinians do want all of their land back. And while that may work as a tempory solution, it won't work in the long term. The two states are bound to fight each other. Especially since the west bank and gaza strip are separated by Israel.
With all due respect, I do not think Arabs should return to Israel. The hate between Jews and Arabs is too strong for them to live side by side in one single state. If Arabs were to ever become a majority and gain the balance of power in their favor, a massacre against the Jewish people would be inevitable. I think seggregation is unavoidable for peace to work. Mixing two incompatible parties together would not work.
You are probably right, but I don't think anything else would work.
 
Lets face it, there is no peaceful solution. Both sides want the same land. Time is on the arabs side but. So its up to the Israelis to figure out how they can survive as a state, because the current situation is unviable in the long term.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 03:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I don't think that would work either. Palestinians do want all of their land back. And while that may work as a tempory solution, it won't work in the long term.


But then what motivation is there at all for Israel to compromise if whatever it does is considered insufficient? It seems that Arabs would not be satisfied with anything which falls short of complete capitulation and a humiliation for the Israelis. Given the current situation in the ground it is totally unrealistic to expect Israelis, who have one of the technologically most advanced army in the area and are in possession of nuclear weapons, to bow down in humiliation.

Israelis ceasing their brutal occupation of the West Bank and dimsnatling the illegal settlements would in my opinion be the only reasonable solution. To demand more would be to push too far.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 04:33
Originally posted by DukeC

 
Originally posted by malizai_

 
 
And the Jews worldwide for the reasons u cited earlier could just as easily settle in Canada. So being in Palestine is not an absolute, unless..., there are.., well....shall we say other priorities as well.
 
Meanwhile back in reality, that's never going to happen. Not because they wouldn't be welcome but because most Israelis would not be willing to leave.
 
 
Right!...so now the argument is switched to reality based one. What a scam!Clap I think Mila has pointed to one of many other realities which you u choose to ignore.


Edited by malizai_ - 12-Aug-2006 at 04:40
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 04:50
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


EDIT: That really is an excellent picture Afghanan
 
 
 
It is indeed.
It demonstrates the hate on both sides, so deeply entrenched that it will take a miracle to solve the situation.
That this poor 6 (?) year old boy, who has been brainwashed by his elders to throw stones at Israeli tanks and thus endanger his life, will ever be prepared to live in peace with his Jewish neighbours, will necessitate a complete rethinking, on both sides of course.
But it's not impossible, South-Africa has shown that it can be achieved.
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 06:03
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


EDIT: That really is an excellent picture Afghanan
 
 
 
It is indeed.
It demonstrates the hate on both sides, so deeply entrenched that it will take a miracle to solve the situation.
That this poor 6 (?) year old boy, who has been brainwashed by his elders to throw stones at Israeli tanks and thus endanger his life, will ever be prepared to live in peace with his Jewish neighbours, will necessitate a complete rethinking, on both sides of course.
But it's not impossible, South-Africa has shown that it can be achieved.
 
Not a miracle, just need the people to became reasonable. Israelis should think of becoming a multiethnic nation. It is possible, it happened in other parts of the world. Of course there will still be terrorist attacks and crazy individuals that would ask for revenge, wipping out the "lesser beings", etc., etc.
That kid, is he responsible or are those who raised him irresponsible? Should I've been brought up by my folks hating the magyars? Then what, gathering a mob of morons and starting a slaughter in Miercurea Ciuc just because magyars are there, settled on "Romanian land"?
People keep talking about their leaders making the wrong decisions but they certainly seem to enjoy following the same leaders.
I have a close friend who is a nazi. He read Mein Kampf, he sticks to the racial doctrine, he hates all the "non-arians". Yet he didn't commited a single crime. He knows I don't share his ideas, on the contrary, but that doesn't make him getting at my guts. He is my favourite partner when practicing kendo. So when I asked him why isn't he becaming violent he said:  "All that happened in the past showed that violence is not a viable long term solution. You see, people know I'm a nazi but they're not scared of me. Some of them are even tempted to be like me. I'm civilized, I'm a good citizen, I show respect to even those who are not sharing my opinions. I'm getting stronger by doing this. I never start a fight, I let the others do it. I'm always sticking on the "right side" as viewed by most of the people. So, I'm always the good guy. See those tzigans over there? They speak loud, they look dirty, people are afraid of them. If I get closer, the same people will see me and who will they like? Look at me, I'm clean, polite, people enjoy my company. Hiler was wrong, he wanted all to happen to fast. USA is the real thing. There are no more native americans. They're not gone, like the dinos, but they aren't far from it. And the whole world think of the USA as "the leader of the free". As long as you're the good guy you can exterminate the opposition. Just don't rush."
Maybe I'm out of topic here but it sure looks to me that what is happening in Lebannon is related somehow with this argument. Neither side, being it jewish, christian, muslim or whatever, is gaining, for the long term I mean. There is no simphathy for both Israel and their enemy(es).
As Ponce said, it is impossible to be objective. Well, God, if it exists, might be objective. People should just try to be reasonable and act responsible. The former happens sometimes, as for the later...
 
 
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 06:28
And thats a good post too Cezar. I'm going to nominate that.
I do believe that the only way to solve this peacefully is for Israel to become multi-ethnic, even if it is impossible.
That this poor 6 (?) year old boy, who has been brainwashed by his elders to throw stones at Israeli tanks and thus endanger his life,

I don't think he requires any brainwashing. And his elders would surely be very upset if they knew that he was risking death like that.
Can you imagine what his mother must think?


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Aug-2006 at 06:34
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 06:46
Originally posted by bg_turk


With all due respect, I do not think Arabs should return to Israel. The hate between Jews and Arabs is too strong for them to live side by side in one single state. If Arabs were to ever become a majority and gain the balance of power in their favor, a massacre against the Jewish people would be inevitable. I think seggregation is unavoidable for peace to work. Mixing two incompatible parties together would not work.
 
I'm sure there is a growing feeling of revenge among  many Palestinians, however, government policies can restrict the opportunities of such behaviors to be adopted and applied on the remaining minority of the offender.
This was the case after the re-conquest of all Christian Crusade kingdoms in the Middle East who many neighboring Muslims hoped to revenge for the massacres done in the late 11th Century and the 12th century.
For instance, after the fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, all Christians who remained did not face the fate of the Muslims and other Christians in 1098.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 07:03

Originally posted by DukeC

As long as there's no peace with Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups/nations the Israelis aren't going to move. They've been attacked too many times in the past to trust in the good will of their neighbors.

DukeC, so if Israel has peace, they will move? I might bring to your attention the interesting fact that reality tells us Israel was never interesed in establishing long-lasting peace with any Palestinian sector. Even after Osslo agreement of 1993, the agreement clearly drew the potential Palestinian state as the 1967 boundries of Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza strip should slowly form a Palestinian state.
 
I will ask you this, if Israel agreed in 1993 that it will give the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian authorities in stages, A,B,and C. Why would they increase settlements on the West bank by 70% after the agreement?
Would you build more settlements on a land you agreed to give back?
Therefore, I cannot and will never accept that Israel had even the good faith and intention to apply the points of Osslo agreement, the first real peace agreement with the Palestinians.
 
My source is:
 

Since the 1993 Oslo peace accords, the number of Jewish settlers has increased by 70% - from 125,000 to 200,000 - not counting the 200,000 Israelis living in 11 settler quarters in East Jerusalem, according to official figures.

A number of settlements have been built very close to refugee camps, where Palestinians live cheek-by-jowl in squalor.

Many are protected by security guards and Israeli troops are often stationed nearby. In some cases, settlers and their children are forced to enter and leave the settlement in armoured military trucks escorted by soldiers.

But some Israelis question now whether the enclaves are worth defending

 

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 10:07
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I don't think he requires any brainwashing. And his elders would surely be very upset if they knew that he was risking death like that.
Can you imagine what his mother must think?
 
Are you trying to say that a six year old is so politically aware that he decides to take up resistance against the Israeli occupiers?
You know as much as I do that this child learned to hate he Jewish from its parents, and other older friends and relatives.
 
 
Maybe the young boys' mother in the first picture is as proud of him , as this man obviously is of his daughter, whom he dressed up as a suicide bomber.
 
Here is a little slide showing how and to what extent Palestinian children are used by their elders. Employing children as soldiers or suicide bombers is surely not a Palestinain monopoly, it's only a few years ago when yopu could see similar pictures on Northern-Irish streets, and I'm sure the Israeli indoctrinate their kids as well, but the pictures clearly show how deeply rooted the mutual animosity and distrusst must be, when children in their infant years learn nothing but to hate the other side.
 
 
 
The Source , "Little Green Footballs" is an American right-wing website, anti-islamic, and I do not agree with their political direction, but I think the pictures demonstrate how much needs to be done in Palestine, when both sides young generations are brain-washed like that. 
The side calls its slide show "Palestinian child abuse" which sounds rather harsh, but is not far from the thruth. Parents that send their children in this war, are not any better than Israeli generals that order the bombardment of Lebanese civilians.
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