Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel

Originally posted by Mila Even if the majority of Israelis and Palestinians wish to establish a peace, there are simply too many issues to ensure that peace lasts. There will always be Israeli nationalists who wish to establish a state that encompasses the entire Holy Land - and they will always have a position of power in the Israeli government. There will always be Palestinian refugees who will do anything to return to the homes they were evicted from so recently many can still remember them. This is especially evident in the occupied territories, where evictions and colonization continues today. But it also evident in Israel proper. There are thousands of people from Jaffa (today's Tel Aviv) who will never stop fighting until Tel Aviv is destroyed and they are allowed to return to their homes. It doesn't matter what the Israelis or Palestinians do en masse, there will always be Jewish fanatics and Palestinian refugees willing to fight. The only logical course of action is for Israel to work to make that number as small as possible, not grow it by thousands every year.

Edited by DukeC - 11-Aug-2006 at 13:35

Israel has security needs which dominate all other needs when there's a percieved threat. As long as there's no peace with Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups/nations the Israelis aren't going to move. They've been attacked too many times in the past to trust in the good will of their neighbors.

Look at the map Afghanan provided, then consider what a Palestinian nation armed the way Hezbollah is would mean to the security of Israel. There would be few places in Israel that would be safe from attack.

Edited by DukeC - 11-Aug-2006 at 17:32

I look at the map provided by Afghanan and see that a well armed Palestinian force in conjuction with outside forces could be decisive if there was another attack on Israel. Israel wouldn't have the time or space to mobilize it's reserves and would be cut in two. Until there's a meaningful political agreement between the Palestinian leadership and Israel as well as other nations and groups like Iran and Hezbollah it will very hard to sell a fully independent Palestinian state in the West Bank/Gaza to Israeli citizens. Even if many aren't right-wing and don't support the settlement program they are sensitive to the security needs of the country.

Edited by DukeC - 11-Aug-2006 at 18:07

Originally posted by DukeC   Originally posted by Mila ^ We agree. You're not willing to condemn Israel fully because of these groups, I'm not willing to let them off the hook fully because of them.       I support Israel because the role it plays in protecting and giving sanctuary for Jews worldwide. I hope for peace in the region because I believe that everybody there has the right to live in dignity.

Edited by malizai_ - 11-Aug-2006 at 19:38

Originally posted by malizai_   Originally posted by arch.buff   Originally posted by DukeC   Originally posted by Mila The more land Israel attempts to conquer, cleanse of its inhabitants, and colonize - the worse its situation will be. The situation since 1967 has been immeasurably worse than the situation between 1948-1967. If Israel attempts to claim more territory in Arabia, it will simply create an even larger refugee population, in ever larger and more desperate refugee camps, with an even larger desire to destroy the country and reclaim everything that was taken from them.       This just isn't historically accurate Mila. Israel was originally created to provide a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, not create an empire. The growth of Israel is directly related to the attempts by it's Arab neighbor to destroy it. You can't use the Balkan experience to describe the middle-east. In most of the early wars Israel was the underdog, less well armed and smaller forces than it's opponents. It was the determination of the Israelis to resist that was the driving force that created the country not the desire to dominate that you seem to believe. After the near defeat in 1973 the Israeli outlook changed, no longer was defence seen to be enough. The IDF took a much more agressive stance towards threats and in the early 1980s invaded Lebanon to evict the PLO guerillas operating there. It wasn't to colonize it was to sanitize.       From my knowledge on the issue this above post by Duke is exactly correct. Israel was founded to create a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, and in the begining Israel was at a serious disadvantage. Just think if the Arab didnt start the conflict in the first place then would there be any? I know its not that easy and some Arab Palestinians were forced into refugee camps and this is unfortunate but from a religious standpoint(among others) Israel has a right to survive and mark my words there be many more that will rise against Israel. This has all been foretold. Not to sound like a religious nut My opinion of Israels existance goes more in depth than just Bible prophecies.   Sorry, but actually it doesnt most of the times. I suspect u also believe that the world was creatde 10000 yrs ago.

Originally posted by DukeC If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done  by Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded?

It doesn't have anything at all to do with viewpoint. You bombed serbia without questioning their 'right to exist'. You bombed Iraq without questioning their 'right to exist'. You bombed the Taliban without questioning their 'right to exist'. Why don't you be fair and bomb Israel too?

Palestine was never a nation,

 The palestinians, whether they be pagan, jewish, christian or muslim have been living there since before recorded history. They have been a nation many times.

this doesn't mean the people displaced by war don't deserve a homeland.

They deserve and probably will not settle for anything less than their homes. Imagine if the palestinians decided to invade and capture NE USA, subsequently cleansing the region of all former inhabitances. How would you feel if you had been kicked off your home, and someone said that to you?

We could go on forever with who started what

Forever? It has a clear beginning in the 1880's when Zionists sat around a table in Vienna and decided to invade Palestine!

and who was the most violent etc

The most violent? The arabs don't even have the opportunity to be more violent! Sit up and smell the roses, Israels violence far exceeds anything the palestinians have ever done.

If the Muslim nations support for a Palestinian homeland is more than just rhetoric they'll stop using the conflict for political purposes and help to find a way to end it.

There I agree. Only Syria and Iran seem to be helping the palestinians in anyway.

Originally posted by bg_Turk Can you clarify to me what security needs do the illegal settlements in the West Bank meet?

Yes, clarify it to me too Duke.

There would be few places in Israel that would be safe from attack.

There are no places in Palestine safe from Israeli attack.

Originally posted by DukeC Originally posted by malizai_ Originally posted by DukeC   Originally posted by Mila ^ We agree. You're not willing to condemn Israel fully because of these groups, I'm not willing to let them off the hook fully because of them.       I support Israel because the role it plays in protecting and giving sanctuary for Jews worldwide. I hope for peace in the region because I believe that everybody there has the right to live in dignity.     Are there jews in Canada??????????   Does Canada discriminate against jews???????????????   Do jews have right to dignity, life, property, worship in Canada??????????   Yes there are Jewish people in Canada.   There are laws that protect all groups from hate crime and discrimination in Canada.

Originally posted by DukeC Meanwhile back in reality, that's never going to happen. Not because they wouldn't be welcome but because most Israelis would not be willing to leave.

Neither are the Palestinians.

Originally posted by Mila Originally posted by DukeC Meanwhile back in reality, that's never going to happen. Not because they wouldn't be welcome but because most Israelis would not be willing to leave. Neither are the Palestinians.